Transcriptions of Interviews with Ministers

2015-02-27 ME001

MM: this is Martin Mostert, interview with ME001, 25th February 2015. First of all, thank you very much for agreeing to answer my questions. Your local church name is ME001 suburb 1 Methodist, is it?
ME001: ME001 suburb 1 Methodist, ja. 
MM: Thank you
ME001: Traditionally known as ME001 former church title.
MM: ME001 former church title , yes! I’ve preached at ME001 former church title
ME001: Good Man
MM: When it was ME001 former church title, long ago
ME001: It still is
MM: Tell me about any evangelism, ME001, that happens in your local church or that involves your members in any way. And I am deliberately not, like, defining evangelism, leaving it totally open to you. Tell me about what you consider evangelism to be.
ME001: OK. Yes, well that was going to be my starting point, requesting how do you interpret “evangelism”? 
MM: No, no – that’s what I am wanting to learn from you
ME001: Well…
MM: Please tell me some stories about what evangelism looks like in your church, in and through…
ME001: I think you need to define it first
MM: OK?
ME001: 0133: And in my terms, evangelism really is space that we give people to express good news. So I suppose most of my ministry is involved in searching for good news stories in the lives of people; and evangelism is for me a connect between faith and life and life and faith. So the good news stories revolve around an assessment of life as it is happening today and what is engaging people on a one-on-one basis. So, for example, when we are at a Bible study we don’t just sit there and hammer the Word, we actually spend quite a lot of time talking about life, and then saying where are the Kingdom values, where are the signs of the Kingdom at work in the lives of the people; how does it relate to the scriptures and give them something that they can take away with them into their life of discipleship or whatever. So, speaking to you as a local preacher, you will always remember when you preached and you were asked the question, “Did he preach Good News?” That for me is the kind of founding block of my understanding of evangelism. I’m always looking for good news in terms of Kingdom signs, Kingdom values – expressing something of that element that is life giving. So in order to understand the ME001 former church title story, the evangelism that came out of it was “How do you respond to a situation of bad news?” – in which they were given threat of closure, you know, a top-down decision was made that they…you know, What’s the point of keeping this community alive? Why should it be having a presence in ME001 suburb 1 when there are bigger churches round about? Obviously that’s not the kind of question to throw into my face! Especially when I live in the area. So you eventually pick up some clues that for me evangelism is local, in the sense that there is a connect with the neighbourhood – which turns into a “neighbour-good”; and you market yourself in that way, that the place that you’ve inherited, and that’s unfortunately the nature of the Christian family, is a place of rootedness and presence. And so your community life centres around the expression of how that community connects with the neighbourhood, and obviously the broader issues and broader surroundings. So it’s into that kind of vortex that my understanding of evangelism is rooted. But obviously it has a much broader perspective for me. My background is one of Religious Studies so I’m not kind of closed, sort of open the suitcase and hammer about.[0510] I’m a lot more open in my approach to looking at the world in a broader context. And I try to bring that into the understanding of evangelism within the context. So… 
MM 0515: Given your basic understanding of evangelism – and thanks, that’s actually very helpful – What’s your understanding of conversion? Are there some people that … you’ll probably want to define conversion as well!
ME001: 0530 I prefer to use the word “transformation”…and right behind the pulpit we have the classic that I forget her name, the banner lady from ME001 nearby church 3, made, or helped the ladies make a banner, and there’s a picture of a butterfly, and the quotation from the New Testament says, speaking about being “a new creation” which is always my mentor [unclear. measure?] for understanding conversion. But in the Wesleyan tradition it’s sort of we’re going to convert you to our way of thinking. But I like to see the process of transformation as a process. But you come to the four “Alls” within the Wesleyan tradition and you can say instead of “All men need to be saved”, “All men need to be transformed” [0632]. They are exposed to the Word, the written Word; they’re exposed to what we would call the heart of Jesus, which is Spirit; they’re exposed to fellowship of community; they’re exposed to the sense of otherness within the sanctuary and within the worship environment.  So for example, if I said, “Here’s a benediction” it would be a benediction that says “May the kindness of Jesus, the love of God, and the friendship and unity of the Holy Spirit be with each one of us.” And that’s for me when you can say “Aha! That’s my moment” because I can receive that as a gift. That can be a moment not so much of conversion as transformation. I can be a new creation.
MM: 0746: And what sort of things change when someone is transformed?
ME001: Well, you know, the best story is that ME001 former church title – we’ve got limited resources – so obviously that has been a big challenge for me, to see a community trying to sustain [0808] itself with squat, you know, other than the building. So the transformation comes at various levels. It comes in people’s lives that are transformed, We do a lot of ground work for example with people who are mentally challenged. There’s an organisation called [name of institution withheld] around the corner. We try and enable some of those folks to feel a sense of community and it’s been for me, OK, maybe not lots of stories to tell but significant stories of one youngster, for example, who was a lad from St Stithian’s, he got totally pissed at 21, rolled his car, brain damage, and kind of stationed at [name of institution withheld]. And he now phones me regularly, just telling me his kingdom signs [0995] and moments of saying “I just want you to know, I’m enjoying, I’m wanting you to feel, to share that. That is a life that’s been transformed, that he’s got a reason to get out of bed in the morning – and he’d probably phone me to say, “What do you think of the cricket, or the rugby?” or something like that. No, he’s alive; and he’ll come to the Bible study, or he’ll phone me to say “I can’t make it, I’ve got to go to the doctor”. But there’s a connection – nothing major, but it’s there.
MM: [0948]: Would you say your congregation has grown or shrunk or stayed static over the last five years?
ME001: Well, some say it’s grown; It depends how you define growth
MM: Ah! There we go – another definition
ME001: Another definition. And for me, I’ve always worked with small congregations. I’m not a numbers man. I’m not like Dale Steyn playing cricket over here who’s got 1.5 million on twitter, you know, and when a friend of mine said to me, “I don’t want to hear how many people who are reading his twitters, I don’t even want to know what he looks like, or how beautiful he is, I just want him to take bladdy wickets!” So you know it’s just like a kind of a process of just saying, “What’s our focus?”, Where are we going to take root and grow?” And I think that changes happen in the life of people, they happen in the life of community. We’ve done some very significant “evangelistic” – I don’t like the word – evangelistic events in ME001 suburb 1. We started a thing called “Table Talk”, which basically was a result of saying “We’ve got twelve tables in our store room, and a statement which I’ve always enjoyed which comes from the Sheffield Inner City Mission – “There’s nothing to talk about until there’s something on the table” [1122]. So we put stuff on the table and build community around it. We created a no-cash deal for everybody; everybody had to write out invoices and we had a central computer point. We have a model there which can be shared with any church. Because they talk about Christians and how they love each other, but they still put their hands in their pockets and steal what should be going to the cause, but it’s a neater way of controlling the process. And that for me was quite transforming: it, but, as with most projects, and I’ve specialised in projects, they have beginnings and they have endings; we’ve just pulled the plug on it and said it’s reached its sell-by date, because ever Tom Dick and Harry now is running his own private car or car-boot sale. But the intention was not so much to make money – it was more to build community, and to say, well, to use your word, “where strangers become friends”.[1241]
MM: What sort of backgrounds…the people who do start attending ME001 former church title; what sort of demographic are we looking at, what sort people – people from other churches, people from [name of institution withheld] which is quite interesting as a place nearby…what are the people like who start attending your church?
ME001: [1310]: You know, you’ve got to remember that ME001 former church title was traditionally a conservative, fairly fundamentalist little church that developed out of a Sunday School. And it really had some rigid, intolerant sort of people who I think after my first week they’d all disappeared, which was quite therapeutic for me because I had an opportunity not to have to deal with that baggage, but also to start from where the people were, which is really where it all begins. And present an interpretation of Good News that I think would be relevant for the 21st century [1407]. I’m not a gimmick man; I’m not a guy who sits there and tries to entertain every Sunday. I mean it’s just another wave and another question that we can go down. I’m a fourth generation Methodist Minister, so my roots are fairly deep [1436]. That can be an advantage. It can also be a disadvantage. And the people who come, I think have come for various reasons.  I think a lot of people come for warmth and fellowship and unity that we have generated; that we have fairly open in the service, we have a lot of dialogue; because we are small, we can just interact. We have taken a long time, for example, to eventually put up a drop-down screen – which an engineer in the congregation bought from cash crusaders! And now we are feeling the benefit of that in a way which you and I don’t understand. I mean, one of the key things, we’ve just pulled in – and one of the key things is evangelism, you’ve got to get the community around your church, and not having this sort of shit of people coming in from suburbia or whatever.[1551]. And for me my hit has been recently I have got the lady next door to church – she doesn’t come to church but she has just run a social media course and a facebook course on the new system. So I’ve just been on that. We’ve got others who are birders who live in the street and take photographs of things, nature things that are happening on the Common, others who are teachers and doctors who come into the church. But they’re local, and they walk to church – but that’s my motto, to try and get people to walk to the community. But that takes time; you can’t just build the five minutes; but it’s been the good approach now, so your property, as I said earlier, it gets owned by the community. So we’ve got local Pilates classes, we’ve got aqua yoga aerobics classes after aqua yoga anyway, they have that straight after worship on Sundays. Some serious stuff like that. And other ventures like training classes [1723]. More recently a jazz group, an a cappela group that’s playing at Oude Meester, they use the church for practice. Someone phoned and said, “I’d like to teach people that are getting married to dance.” And so there are ventures that are starting to roll. That comes with time.  But it comes back to your question about connecting with the local environment. And that environment, you’re bound by that, and your [1806] modern day suburbia, and we still like to see ourselves as feeding on the old Inner City Mission where I was in ME001 suburb 4.  We have the same circuit number; we are in the unique position of being our own circuit – we don’t pay assessment – we’ve managed to sort ourselves…we’ve got one more year to go, we’re just about ready…
MM: 1830: We’ll talk about finance things later. I’d just like to go back – you talked about the people who left when you arrived, the sort of more fundamentalist people. Are there any other trends you’ve seen in people who exit? People who’ve not been able to go with this.
ME001: 1846: There are other people who’ve wanted to be more lively and charismatic, who have gone off on their journeys; others who have felt we are not inclusive enough of people of other faiths, and have gone off on their Sufi walks. You know we’ve got a youngster who’s Jewish, we’ve got him into the music group which is a separate thing to…. Music is an important thing for me. [1922] But you know we visit at the Synagogue in ME001 suburb 1 which is you know behind the Pick ‘n Pay [1931]. So there are those links.  And we’re starting now to get a couple of Zimbabweans linking in, not a great number. I think it’s very difficult for people of different culture to identify with, you know, what’s on offer there. Because we are small they can’t get totally immersed – because their numbers aren’t massive. It’s quite difficult. And also, in terms of the demographics, [2011] we have a lot of people who are retirees, and who enjoy the non-pressure of being a small community.
MM: 2038: One thing that I’m interested in is, do you get peripheral members, people who count themselves as members but you see very seldom? 
ME001: 2050: No, no, no, the trend today, Martin, there are two trends. The one is that there are people out there who have church association but have got quite frustrated with what’s on offer in their local church. And so they do what we call the “elusive butterfly”, they go flitting and looking.  And many of them have found ME001 former church title to be a home, maybe on a once-a-month basis, but particularly depending on what’s on offer. So the whole thing’s related to events and experience
MM: 2138: Do you get a big influx at Christmas and Easter? 
ME001: 2130: No, no it’s always packed. But packed for us is eighty people…no more space. We’ve got exactly eighty chairs, so you know you’ve reached your full quota. 
MM: 2153: I think you’ve answered question four as well as we’ve gone along. I’d like to probe in the next section more about your thinking on evangelism. Do you teach people about evangelism? If so what particular aspects do you emphasize? You’ve talked a lot about this already, but is there anything else?
ME001: 2222: The teaching is very much a communal experience; and the teaching that…we don’t sit there and say “This is how evangelism works”. We try to live it out, 
MM: to model it
ME001: Ja, to model it. [2237]. For example, one of the first things I did in ME001 former church title when I walked in was, “Good God, there’s something like nine doors, all facing the space. So the first thing I did was, from my printing background, was to get someone to cut out labels with the nine gifts of the Spirit and put them on each door, right above there, and I said to them, If you want a lesson on evangelism it’s there and it’s ready for you every time you walk into this place, because what you are experiencing here in this church is what I call a Pentecostal laboratory. So you need to understand that if we are going to look at our lives, we need to be able to say “Well maybe I need to concentrate on the love and the joy and the peace and the patience.” [2330] So the ideal of trying to enable people to capture something of the dynamic of the fellowship needs, and the spirit of life in community for me is trying to live out the message, and proclaim it that way. I don’t sit there and have formal classes saying “This is evangelism” because it would be dead in the water before I began. [2401]. 
MM: 2406: What are some of the important things that people who are not Christians need to hear and see?
ME001: 2415: They have to see… the most important thing about today’s society and church is that when a church meets basic human need, I mean, for example, if it addresses poverty, so, for example, just little initiatives…we have had some members in the congregation who have been “secret Santas” [2432] they have said, “We don’t want you to know who this is from, but it’s our way of saying…our way of recognising. So for example we’ve got quite deep roots into [nearby old-age home], in [road name withheld], which is… a number of people there like the community we bring. We’ve begun initiatives like “Take a Break” which is like what we’re doing in Vida Café which is, you know, an affordable coffee, a cheaper coffee, it costs them nothing, just for people to meet and talk for an hour. Music is big, for me [2525]. I’ve really been cheesed off with the way music has gone in churches today, where it’s more about context than what we are singing, and how insipid the theology is. And nobody’s out there to actually knock it. And so what we do on the third Sunday of every month, which has become, we’ve been running for about seven years now. We’ve got a very good organist – keyboardist – but he’s a jazz musician, but also the principal organist at the ME001 nearby church 2 [2611], at ME001 nearby church 2. And John and I we’re virtually a mobile…you could put us in Claremont or you could put us anywhere and we could rock…I mean I don’t say that in a…just touching in on telling the stories of great hymns of faith and getting people to find there voice through unbelievable backing [2633]. So music at ME001 former church title is a serious draw-card for the disenfranchised and the folks who are really pissed off at what’s been happening in their local churches. I mean, I don’t want to make this public, but we get such a spillage from ME001 nearby church 3
MM: Nothing’s going public! [2657]
ME001: [2702]: We get such a spillage from ME001 nearby church 3 of people who were absolutely frustrated. The hymns of the faith are just not shared, you know. And you’ve got…well the best comment I’ve ever heard is someone said, “I’ve become a Catholic, it doesn’t work anymore. I want to escape the Protestant guitars”.[2722] You know the kind of shit that goes on in sanctuaries where you get musicians up front who think they’re musicians and they play, and you can think “Shame, God bless him, he’s there. But he actually never ever would have made it on any platform, and then you get assaulted for an hour, because the guy, this worship leader, thinks he owns the service! 
MM: [2753]: I need to move us on
ME001: but you understand what I mean
MM: [2804] Anything from John Wesley that you find helpful in these…you know, you talk about going back to roots
ME001: [2810]: We’ve already mentioned the “Four Alls”; I’m passionate about spreading Scriptural Holiness. I think that that’s…you know we always talk about Christian Perfection, but it’s just completing the circle, making the connect. 
MM: [2829] Do you use any anecdotes from his life?
ME001: [2834]: My anecdote of John Wesley, I’ve been to…I’ve stood on the grave where he preached, his father’s grave at Epworth. I’ve been through Epworth and I’ve been to his Tomb at Wesleyan Old Street at the back of the Chapel. I’ve followed him intently throughout the UK. I’ve looked at his steps. I think my time in Newcastle in the north of England – I was at a church called the New Brunswick church for a year of my life in 1982 –this was with a non-racial team from South Africa, kind of the very first experiment in a youth exchange; and I visited about forty churches over there. And that church did…what I saw there turned my life around in terms of just how you transform poverty [2930] and that the fact was Wesley had been quite prominent in the community, and the community was still alive. For me, Wesley…the four elements of reason, tradition, scripture and experience [2952] – the fundamentals of just looking at faith from a Wesleyan perspective, and the little prayer that we’ve sometimes said, you know, “Do no harm by any word or deed/ do good wherever there is any need”, put it to music, “Remain attentive to God’s Word, stay in love with God”. [3012] It comes from Reuben Job, he was a Bishop, one of those many Bishops in America. But he summarised Wesley, as I’ve just done for you – so you can put that down as a credit to Reuben Job, not to me. He also gave us music for it, and it’s a nice jingle to try. I think for me I have enjoyed Wesley at various levels.  I think his catholicity of spirit has helped me immensely, universal love; transformation or salvation by faith through grace, and that spirit of seeing new creation moments or kingdom moments happen in people’s lives…gets my motor going. I’m not comfortable with the way our church is run at present [3117] You know as a Methodist Church I don’t think we get Episcopalian, we never have been, 
MM: 3128: Hang on, I’m going to move you on from that pathway
ME001: You do that; but I can give you a run on that
MM: 3137: You’ve drawn a picture of a certain kind of evangelism.  Do you find that some of your congregation buys into this more than others, and if that’s so
ME001: 3150: That’s a good question. I think for me the miracle of actually having people come to church on a Sunday is absolutely mind-blowing – that they’ve actually chosen to come and be present in a church service is a respectful moment in my life [3204].  I mean when I was in ME001 suburb 4 I turned it upside down, and we had worship on Wednesdays [3217]. We just changed things and said “Let’s try and help people in the process of Sabbath living, rather than Sabbath keeping. Because you know when you look at a Sunday now compared with what we grew up with, I mean it’s chalk and cheese. So the process is always on the go; it’s …you’ve got to look at it and… can you just repeat that question, the last one?
MM: 3249: It was based on, are some of the members of your congregation more involved in evangelism, as you’ve described it, and if so, drawing on your pastoral experience, could you give some reasons.  Why are some people more fully involved in this process of contact with people…
ME001: 3312: it’s the same wherever you go.  I spent three months in Detroit and it’s the same issues wherever you go. You’ve got your doers and you’ve got your laggers…it’s human nature.
MM: Yes, that’s what I want to know – tell me why?
ME001: 3323: I think it’s just human nature.  If you follow the Enneagram to its logical conclusion you’ll find that some people are achievers and some are just happy to sit back and do bugger all, you know, and that’s the bottom line. I mean you can ask your wife can ask you that question every day, “Why aren’t you doing the dishes?” or “why aren’t you cutting the lawn?” or “Why aren’t you painting the house?” or whatever.
MM: 3354: I’m asking the questions! [laughter]
ME001: Been there, done it all
MM: 3402 I think you’ve also addressed question seven quite a lot, about taking responsibility for situations in the world that are not directly related to your church
ME001: 3410: Yes, that’s big; and we try and encourage...can I just say around that point that for me I try and bring out the best in people.  And so, for example, we’ve got members who take responsibility in broader fields. We’ve got a land surveyor who is now chairman of the Friends of Rondebosch Common – there are many environmental issues which I am very involved about: helping people get a mind-set that says, “Look carefully at your context and see the damage that you are doing and seeing the resources that are needed”. [3449] And so, you know, this recent triumph of having a local person next door not come to church but actually come in and offer these course has been seminal for me. Or, a young couple down the way who had a baby; they came to us on Christmas day. And that to me…I even write about it on my blog. So that’s an issue that’s very close to my heart; and how do you deal with poverty, how do you deal with sustainability and so on.[3542]. 
MM: 3546: OK. Now question eight, you’ve already spoken a lot, talked a lot about conversion – you talked about “transformation”, preferring to see it as transformation. Anything else that you’d like to say there? What’s this transformation? How important is it for Christian Discipleship, that sort of thing?
ME001: 3611: I think the key is to help people discover who they are and there’s a process for enabling people to think seriously about what’s going on in their lives and how they actually learn to dig deep within their soul. And the other need, it’s a key process of, I mean if you want to be like the Indian warrior with a big chopper and a bow-and-arrow and sort of nail your specific target…But there is a real place and a space to allow people to be themselves, to feel that they are in a trusting environment, and to eventually open up to you [3654]. I mean I had a little thing yesterday: a lady said, “Can I come and see you?” I said, “A pleasure.”  She was there an hour beforehand and I was still in my pyjamas.  I said, “You’re welcome.” She just…there was a measure of trust and she was quite open and she said, “I know I’m divorced from my husband, but he’s staying with our daughter, and he’s an alcoholic. “ And it wasn’t just to dump it on me, it was just simply to share it, to say, “I believe you are able to do something”. So, which I did. I was able to write to a minister, put the story together and say, “Listen, can you make an intervention here and can you connect?” So that whole process of allowing people to connect and seeing the benefits of what transformation or conversion means [3801].You know, the dream of seeing the husband and the home life changed – kind of brings you back to your “four alls” again.
MM: 3817: And anything in Wesley’s understanding of conversion that helps you, that motivates…you’ve already spoken…
ME001: 3821: No now look, you come back again to the “Four Alls”: all men can be saved, all can know they are saved and all need to be saved, and all can know they are saved and be saved to the utmost. But that for me, it’s not…there are entry levels at all points. Some people are further down the track than others [3832] So for me the driving force with Wesley is always that “The best is always yet to be”, There’s, you know, I mean, you can look at this and I mean I was just walking to go and buy bananas so I walked in the car to – not walked – but I looked into the cars by Woolworths which is quite a nice walk along the Common and so on, and I was just disturbed by these ever-burgeoning traffic jams that they’re having, [3916] and I just said, “God’s truth! All these cars and there’s only one driver, number one. I looked at the City busses and they were all empty – and the Wesley within me said, “This needs transformation!” I went to movies last night with a friend of mine – this was the second time I’d seen it – a movie called “The Imitation Game” which is worth seeing; and the service at the reception was absolutely shocking. Now I want to write to management and just say to them, “How can you improve things?” We went into a theatre, which – the friend who I was with is a production manager at Coca Cola and he said, “My gosh”, he said, “How the hell do you sustain this when you’ve got six people in the theatre?”[4023]. You know at Canal Walk, what rent are you paying? Just simple logistics. I did a wedding at Maatjiesfontein, at the weekend, and we were driving back between De Doorns and Worcester, and I saw a man, he was in a big Civils truck, and he went right over a white line, down the…and we were just expecting accident after accident, absolutely reckless. So I got up to him and took a photograph, which made him quite aggressive. And first thing Monday morning I phoned the manager, sent him the photographs and said, “You guys sort this out” [4107], and took responsibility for something that really needed transformation and needed to be dealt with. Not in a vindictive way, but just for the sake of making the planet a better place, with better, a safer place, with better drivers. 
MM: 4129: Now let’s see – question nine. I think we’ve talked a lot about evangelism as being an integral part of your church, 
ME001: 4150: We live it out. And we live it out at two things, well, at various levels. For me what is always important for every church is for it to understand its role, what its identity is. But key to me and key to our South African heritage is that a good striving point is “How do you create unity in diversity?” You know, how do you actually generate a spirit of fellowship that is meaningful, that is deep, that is actually sustaining? And I think that we have kind of missed that boat, and we need to look at that very carefully. And we’ve got a ….great possibilities here, to make it happen. But that leads me into other aspects of secular society and ja the reality of choice, which is…I don’t think we’ve begun to deal with that. 
MM: 4307: and choice is quite important when dealing with evangelism, conversion, that sort of thing – that cluster of ideas. Oh, here’s a thought. Are there any practical boundaries, if you’re thinking of evangelism as part of your church program: are there any practical boundaries that limit your church, that you talked about the neighbours…
ME001: 4340: Well, you can’t have alcohol on the property. And I don’t drink. But it’s just an aside
MM: I mean by boundaries, places you cannot go or cannot reach, that you would say, “This, although I’d like us to be there, is beyond us”
ME001: 4408: That’s a good question. We had a delightful story to tell which is quite worth sharing. We had a situation where a homeless guy decided to become a regular member at ME001 former church title. I knew you’d enjoy this story. And when he came in he really honed. I mean you used to watch okes accommodate and I used to take him into the room next door and spray him with perfume, just let him settle in. And bless his soul, the late James Timoney, that you and I went together to funeral of, got hold of me one day, and he just – because he used to worship with me and he used to ask the sort of questions that you might ask if you get into church growth, but he came to me and said, “ME001,” he said, “What the hell are you doing?” You know he was quite outspoken. And he just said to me, “Deal with this professionally.” That was his point of attack. He said, “Our resources are stretched. We don’t have the capacity to deal with this.” He said, “Go and speak to Karin – Karen at the [name of institution withheld] in ME001 suburb 7”. And that opened the doors of setting an awareness of our limitations and also our approach of being able to say, “This is the only way we can deal with it”. Because we get the usual, you know, the steady flow- we’re like a piece of Velcro, it sticks to us, you know, and I’m quite ruthless because of my days in ME001 suburb 4, where I was taken out so many times – where I said, “Sorry guys, this is not right.” And James did something to me; and I bless him for that because he just said, “You’ve got to do this professionally and properly”. And so we support initiatives that do the job better than we do. And so we partner with, get alongside those who possible make a better job of it.
MM: 4645: are there any barriers at the other end of the social scale? 
ME001: Sorry, any?
MM: Similar sort of barriers but at the other end of the social scale
ME001: 4658: Ja, I mean it’s very difficult, up at the top end…are you talking about the economic environment here?
MM: Yes
ME001: We’ve got a broad cross-section of people, but I think when it gets to the top end now … you know I argue that we promote a gospel of equalities and common values and Spirit, and an element of stuff that money can’t buy.[4729]. The trends that are happening at the other end of the scale is that it’s “Dial-a-Priest”, you know, that it’s Priest-on-Demand – “Where are you?” and “How much do you charge?” I’ve actually enjoyed those boundaries because I dance on them – I know how to dance on them. So I have utilized that fact – in fact I have more people reading my blog than I do have coming to church. [4805]. I have great joy in getting, as Wesley would say, to where the people are. So if I have a look at my last week I had a wedding at Grootbos at Stanford, on the Friday. The weekend before that I had a wedding at Lambert’s Bay. And the Grootbos was on the Friday, on the Saturday I was up at Maatjiesfontein. That’s a hell of a…that’s some serious travelling. I’ve got a break this weekend. So on the high end stuff we get a lot of the rugger-buggers together, I enjoy that, to have a good time; and then the whole of March is Wine Estates for weddings. I was very upset in terms of high end…I double-dated, and I had a wedding on a yacht sailing from Hout Bay to Llandadno. I had to phone nearby minister 3 and say to him, “You’ve got to help me! I’m not available.” [4924]. Fortunately, he could help me. I would have enjoyed that. But the high end stuff? I’ve mixed and mingled with the mink, and I know how to mix and mingle with the manure.[4939]. So it’s 
MM: 4943: Any John Wesley cognates there? Any stories from his life?
ME001: 4944: Well, you know, the concept of John Wesley saying “The world is my parish”, I’ve always said, “My parish is the world”, and I’ve turned it on its head. I’m not comfortable with trying to think that we’re gung-ho and we’ve got all the answers for world peace and [inaudible] but I do think that when we take our world, and our context and our environment seriously, then things begin to happen. [5014]. So my ministry is based…well, you’re catching me on spillage, because ME001 suburb 1’s really a product of ME001 suburb 4, you know, an extension of the work.
MM: 5034: We’re getting close to the end here – question 10. Which is what sort of evangelism outsiders find most persuasive? You’ve spoken a lot to these, but under this…what’s offensive? What’s persuasive? Thinking from an outsider’s point of view looking in towards your ministry and your presentation of transformational good news.
ME001: 5058: I think my biggest concern with, with, with … outsiders is that perceptions are incredibly negative among people who are on the fringes or not even on the fringes and who couldn’t give a damn, you know. So for me – I thrive on working with people of no faith, who are actually not interested in what we are doing. And I actually find that to be one of the most driving challenges in my ministry. It’s not a question of “How do you make the church relevant” but how do you make the connect [5155] with this dynamic, changing world.  And so now and again there are moments of sort of like Kingdom signs, when all of a sudden we get it right, and you know, Good News just surprises us. I mean the other day we’ve been running “Music at ME001 former church title” faithfully, it’s just a regular event, just plugging away, sharing the story; and a woman came to me afterwards and she said, “I just want you to know that we have enjoyed the work that you are doing over here”, and just gave us ten grand. Which was just gob-smacking. It was a kind of a deceased estate thing, it was in honour of a loved one, but (and I wouldn’t say this publicly but it should have gone to ME001 nearby church 3, but the ministry at ME001 nearby church 3 really rocked her boat)…that was quite moving. And your last question?
MM: 5316: Just before that, is it possible to limit some of that offensiveness? By the way you talked about ministry you talked about limiting offensiveness. Are there some ways you can help people limit the offence they, and the church – the way the secular world experiences Christianity in a negative light?
ME001: 5345: No you can, you know, and it’s questions of getting inroads into the media, of beginning to share some of the stories that are happening. I just recently went on this facebook course and Margaret was talking of how things have changed. Radio took 37 years to reach 50 million people; TV took seventeen years; FaceBook took sort of three years – and it got down to the point that Angry Birds took 35 days. And that process of realising that there is a whole new world out there…The question that she raised with me was “I don’t know what’s going to happen next” [5434]. That for me is a word that is so rich in gospel, that we actually don’t know what is going to happen next. We have the faith to say that these doors of opportunity will reveal themselves. It’s the same old human nature, it’s the same old earth. It’s the same old basic values. We’re all living, we’re all growing older; we will all die, and that’s it. That it’s the quality of life that we find ourselves striving for. The bad news is that all the negative stuff, which is the headlines. A lot of the quieter, gentler, softer voices are just kind of pushed away by the advancing tide. [5531]. So for me things like whether you’re rich or poor, Eskom is a huge issue. And it’s lovely, because it’s actually making people face the real world, life without electricity and without power and who am I? and how do I deal with it?… and I think that’s absolutely wonderful – it’s a levelling process of people realising that jobs are scarce and it’s not easy to get a job, and I think that even when I look at my own children they’re working their guts off to try and just make ends meet: I enjoy that energy, and I feed off it. So basically I’m saying to you that there’s work to be done. I’m retired, so I can sit back and smoke grass or whatever. But if you said to me, “What’s the best good news in this story over here?” the best good news was that I retired at 60, and I highly recommend it. I think I would be a bit frustrated if I didn’t have this challenge of ME001 former church title. But you know the driving point was that it was threatened with closure. And right now we’re under investigation, you know. Big word. And so we’re trying to tell the stories, and that you’ll find on facebook. [5709]
MM: 5710: Last question: who decides on any budget expenditure for the needs of those who are not Christians, or people who are not members of your church community? Where does the money come from? I know you’ve said that money is an issue in an under-resourced church.
ME001: 5735: I think that the secret to that community has always been where I’ve come from, is to build up a really good team of people. Not all like-minded, because … the one thing that I can say to my credit is that I have built up a really good team of leadership at ME001 suburb 1, and that that I can just walk away – as I did with Detroit for three months – and it ran without me. And with that there is consultation, there is a measure of accountability, and the proposals are put in front of them, and, or they come off the floor – “Can you help?” or “Can we make a plan?” [5818], and we say yes or no. But it’s not big high-end budgeting, although we’ve managed to turn the corner a little bit with these limited resources. But it’s a nice story. It’s a kind of miniature parable of what I like to call the “future church”
MM: 5847: Let’s just finish off with a fantasy scenario. Suppose you were given R10,000 to spend on people who were not in the church. How would you spend it?
ME001: 5901: Well, I would look for the biggest human need, wherever my feet were placed. I would begin to say, let’s make an assessment of…
MM: 5910: In ME001 former church title
ME001: 5914: In the ME001 former church title community? Well the easiest way to answer that is that I consider the future of the church to lie in possibly four areas: number one, education; two, worship; three, food; and four, what I call the service industry. Being able to minister in a creative way. I’m just talking in broad terms. If I was given that as start-up capital, then I would always come back to my core business which is to create employment for people, and use that as start-up capital. And then my experience with small business venture for example was that we started with a seven-and-a-half thousand rand grant, and we built the project up to finding full-time work for sixteen people and part-time work for a hundred people per annum [10015]. And where we had no money – we were generating at nearby suburb R70 a Sunday – we were turning over R3m per annum. Out of a little catalyst.  And people believed in it because it was meeting a basic human need.  So for me, if I was pushed hard enough, I would put that money towards designing a fabulous kitchen, and I would create meals, and around it community, and around it I would bring in my music, so that it’s the best place to go for things that can be bought… and that’s the good news
MM: 10111: ME001 thank you very much
ME001: There you go
MM: Thank you very, very much
7570 words
2015-03-11 MA002
M
37
Church Street Methodist
MM: 0000: It’s the 11th of March 2015, and this is Martin Mostert in Conversation with the rev. MA002 Afghan of the MA002 suburb1 Methodist Church. We, first of all I’d like to say thank you very much for agreeing to spend this time, and I hope that you’ll feel happy to just speak from your heart about the experiences, your thinking and the practice of evangelism, from your perspective. Thank you. How old are you?
MA002: 0050: I am 37 years old; and I’m a male
I’ll speak from two folds, Martin.  I will speak on behalf of MA002 suburb1, and then I also speak on behalf of the Official Church Department, where I keep the portfolio of Portfolio X.
MM: 0118: Thank you. That should enrich your answers. MA002, first of all, tell me about any evangelism that happens in your local church, or involves your congregation in any way. Tell me some stories of what evangelism looks like. 
MA002: 0137: Well, in the current context where I am actually finding myself in, we are starting off with evangelism, as it has been like, the context where I find myself in was almost just like a Sunday coming in and going out. We’re trying now to mobilise the people into doing evangelism into small groups… small groups of social concerns: our public witness, justice and service, so that’s starting to take voice at this moment. [0212]. But if we ask about the voices of evangelism, many people continue to speak about the “lay witnessing”, program, when they went to many places to do mission and evangelism. But at the moment we’re at the place where the church defines itself as the process where evangelism almost has to be born, at this moment. But we’re trying to be more contextual now. In other words, our open chapel.
MM: 0250: Tell me about Open Chapel and things like that?
MA002: 0258: Open Chapel is that we have a chapel on the premises, which we daily open it to the public. We have notes within the chapel which ask for people to leave prayer requests, and also contact details where the minister get in contact with them. One of the stories of just last week was when somebody put a note in saying “Thank you for this open door, because I just committed my life to Jesus again.” 
MM: 0328: And then why is there a prayer chapel…why do you run a prayer chapel at this particular place?
MA002: 0332: One of my predecessors, MA002 nearby minister 1, had the cry of the people saying the church is next to the court and the police station. MA002 suburb1 court and police station. And people passed with a lot of needs and a lot of pain. And part of that in converting it into a chapel with an outside entrance. And one day he walked into the chapel and he saw somebody, a lawyer, or a judge, one of the two, sitting and crying. And ME005 asked him, “Why?” and he said, “Thank you for this place because there’s so much pain. It’s too much for an individual to bear.” [0425]. “Thank you for this open door that this can be a place where people can just offload and spend time with God, the quietness out of the hustle and bustle”. And it has been closed for almost a year before I came, because of our evangelism and some other activities, but in the last nine months we have taken this as a step in faith, to say that we’ll open the church for that. [0452]. Some beautiful stories about people who have experienced conversion within our church, it goes, because I am less than two years within the current context, is about just building up the church, and people coming back. But when I start to listen to stories, of conversions and what led to their conversions, is the open door, the welcoming, the hospitality, and that moment of just experiencing Jesus, [0530] you know. I need to be honest: it is a very tough society or setting, where the people almost have lost the love and passion for Jesus. And it’s almost like they find themselves in a groove of obligation. [0550], rather than passion. And it’s trying to lead them to that place of passion. Some of the things that is very helpful is our understanding of the missio Dei, is that it’s not our work, not our mission, but it’s God’s mission. And you continuously ask the question when you listen to stories: where is God leading us, where God want us to go, and try to take a way where we want to go and what we want to accomplish within our own lives. The storytelling is starting to take effect from this moment; this last semester we had people in a wheelchair coming in to tell their story, people who have one through divorce talk about their pain, and some people coming to share their stories, and their witness to the people, and just allow us to see how in our own setting, how do we not use to the full capacity the gifts or the potential that God has given us. [0706] But yes, at the other side, people are not yet open to share their story, almost that they build their own fences to share that. 
MM: 0720: Well, I’ll interrogate that a bit more later, because I think that’s a very important point. Maybe a more technical question: in the last five years would you estimate that your congregation has grown, stayed more or less the same, or shrunk in numbers?
MA002: 0739: Well…I think that if I look at the documentation of the church, the last few years the church had gone down in numbers. The last year and a half it went up in numbers with new members joining the church. But I’d probably look and work at things in the life of the church is the attendance, and looking at the measure of what is our attendance on a Sunday. And you don’t look at the quantity of people, but you measure your quota of your society of the average attendance of your membership. When I came in the latter part of 2013 it was about 30-35% of membership attending, and at the moment we average between 50 and 55% of membership attending [0852]. Which gives us a bit more than half.
MM: 0856: That’s a very interesting way of looking at it
MA002: 0900: Ja. So I don’t look at the numbers of how much you’ve got on the membership list, because there are many “ceased to meet” many adherents, many special cases coming to church
MM: 0914: For the sake of the record could you just say why you are looking at church, why you’ve got percentages of you congregation at your fingertips? Is it anything to do with your studies? 
MA002: 0928: Yes and no. Part of discipleship building is to see how do you invest in your core of your people that attend church, and how do you invest within them. How do you invest your energy within them? And yes, part of your studies help me on how to focus your energy on the core that comes. At the moment most of my energy goes into 30% of the 55%, because I know they will become the home cell leaders, they are the people that continues to sustain the ministry of the church [1007] and that. So I look at that because you see then how then can we go out and increase the average, because you do not want to look at special occasions, the number for that Sunday. But you want to say, “How many people do this church in discipleship feed them to the gospel?” and, “What is the turnover?” And that’s why I look at that.
MM: 1037: OK. And, particularly looking at new members becoming part of that attending core, where do they come from? 
MA002: 1052: Some of them come from baptism. Some of them come from moving into the places. Some of them come from weddings that I do, and some came from funerals that I did. Because with an open door policy we bury anyone, if you can afford the funeral, we will do it, we don’t charge. But if people can’t, if somebody dies here on our doorstep, we will look at funds about it. So we have an open door policy. And some of the members that do come was family members of those that passed on.
MM: 1143: And have you had any experience of people leaving, and have you noticed any trends amongst people leaving your church? Do you have much of an exit stream? Some churches have quite a big one, so I’m interested in this
MA002: 1150: My context, no. I do find myself between the traditional, which is a bit conservative, which is more conservative than moderate; and even myself I find myself more in the moderate ways of church. We have the congregation that is more traditional, so a person has to be very sensitive about how you do bring in contemporary stuff within the service; but we have not experienced…I have experienced one or two families that maybe does not like the open door policy of the current minister, or the type of leadership of the current minister, which will then say, “OK, well I think my time of leadership is over” – which is OK. Which gives you a way for new people. But I have not experienced…in fact, in my whole ministry I have not experienced the exodus.
MM: 1258: Well that’s interesting because we know churches in our circuit who have. Do you have people who attend your church services very seldom but whom you still count as members, or who still count themselves as members?
MA002: 1314: they are there but not there. I think that is because of the status of the church…because it’s one of the oldest in the top ten, one of the oldest in the Southern Cape, of Methodism, and the history of Methodism since 1851. And many people they want to be buried out of the church. They want to be buried in the cemetery in the yard of the church. And so they don’t want to lose their membership of the church. So even for some of them they just come to church on special occasions … Easter and Christmas, so this is all…if somebody dies. You will see them. There has been, and I don’t know if we can classify that as a race issue, but the people in the Greater MA002 suburb 4, or … especially just the MA002 suburb 4, I think ever since we’ve had people of colour moving in, which means the first coloured minister but the second black minister in this, have not been much visible. If not visible at all. Whereas the middle class, which I call blue collar white people has been so supportive, but the white collar have not been. So they form part of the special occasions that…where you see them just moving in. But it’s more about keeping membership. And hence people feel they want to keep their membership. [1511]. And hence focusing on the core. They can be much more influential in the work that they do
MM: 1523: OK, well that moves us on to question four. Could you describe your congregation please, in terms of languages, culture mix and socio-economic factors…we’ve already started talking about that.
MA002: 1535: Well, we, probably have about languages, we’ve probably got about six languages attending our services on a Sunday morning…English, Afrikaans, isiXhosa, Sotho, Zimbabwean, some Malawian…that comes and forms part of our society. I’ll first speak about the plus and then I’ll come to the other side of it. It is still predominantly, 70% attendance is still white. And then part of the socio-economics, it’s mainly the working class that find themselves here. And we can’t see MA002 suburb1 as one of the elite societies any more, as we talk about resources, because many of the people are aging. And the struggling which we are having for example is in the youth and in the Sunday School division, [1642] where there’s almost no one. I don’t know if the setting of teaching is the old-fashioned way or whatever, but anyhow, there’s just no one there. To comparison which I make to my other society in MA002 suburb2, is that in that small society there is more kids coming to Sunday School than in this big society…over twenty kids? And we get less than …. And the other side is that I think the society is not much open yet. Because, mainly because we have some people who are from Ireland or London that don’t understand any other language like Afrikaans and only understand English, there’s no, we don’t cater for the bilingual language [1733]…..they don’t. Even if we look at some of the hymns we can put in a Sesotho or a Xhosa verse, but then nobody will sing. So they are not open to that yet. The social dynamics here, again, it is the people I will say they’re “semi well off”; because many of them are moving in, but we assume… It’s only in this last week that when we divided the membership list into different zones, because of starting home cells and those kind of things now, that we discover the majority of our people now actually stays in MA002 suburb1. [1836].
MM: 1836: Seriously? That’s interesting. But now why was that a surprise?
MA002: 1842: It was, because we always assumed we are a “moving in” community. … because people come in with their cars. Transportation. We always assume people are moving in. And assume that the MA002 suburb 3, the MA002 suburb 4, the MA002 suburb 5, the MA002 suburb 6, MA002 suburb 4, MA002 suburb 7, MA002 suburb 8, the people coming in. So our focal point was always these that comes in. And even last night, which was the tenth of March, when I said to my stewards, “Where does most of the people come from?” and they said “MA002 suburb 3”, and I mentioned MA002 suburb1, all were amazed. And part of the ethnographic research that …which we have conducted that allows us to look at the different factors that makes the society. This was one of the side that I undertook to see that where do most of our people come from. And so most of our attenders actually come out of the MA002 suburb1 and the MA002 suburb 3 places. We have very few people that are unemployed. Most are working. [2000] And most of them are middle aged, between the ages of 35 and 50. There’s not a lot, there is about a quarter that we have over 65, 70. It looks like a aging society, but it looks because you see mainly more aging people within the services. And the middle aged you only see them special occasions. So actually our target that we need to work on, to get into the church would be the middle sector.  But it’s all working class people. 
MM: 2044: That’s very interesting, thank you. That’s me quizzing you about experiences, what things look like on the ground. I’d now like you to tell me things about how you think about evangelism. And the first question there, question five, is do you teach people about evangelism, and if so what aspects do you emphasize?
MA002: 2106: Well I’m more into public theology – a public understanding of God, and how we in a way make God known in the world. So I’m more the outside than the inside person. My understanding, my personal understanding is always that mission always proceeds from God, that God always invites us, we never invite God; we always follow God, God never follows us. And the importance of discerning where God is leading us, particularly contextual as well. Because I don’t believe in duplications, number one. I don’t believe in being competitive with other people [2204] …. Duplications? If this church is doing something, and then four hundred meters the other church is doing the exact same thing: I don’t believe in that. And I don’t believe in being competitive: if another society is better, not better but more effective, we don’t compete. We need to give thanks to God for what’s happening there. But we need to be contextual. Of what God is calling us to do, and that. And so my understanding of evangelism is one of the authors says “one beggar telling another beggar where to buy food”[2257]. And I think that’s very important for me. Because God calls us. As Cecil Begbie or Mrs Begbie always says, “Calling the whole church to take the whole gospel to the whole world.” [2305]. And so it allows us to have a form of evangelism almost in every core of preaching and sharing, because that need to be the core of what we need to do. And for me what I emphasize more on are activism. Why activism in MA002 suburb1? It’s about we have, we need to have a voice. We are, our setting is unique. You are the church next to the Magistrates’ Court, next to the police station, you are the church next to the funeral parlour, you are the church opposite the library, opposite the park. You have more people passing up and down here than any other street except the Main Road in MA002 suburb1, than any other street in MA002 suburb1. [2405]. There’s always movement. The only time there’s no movement is on a Saturday and a Sunday. There’s always movement. So what is the voice of the church? And so my aspect is to realize, how do we evangelise in that?  So now I will come to how do we do that. We do that, part of what we try to do is the midweek services, where we invite people. We average over 20,25. And what I do, ten to one I walk down to the court and I invite people to come [2443]. And they come. And I even invite them, “You can come eat inside the church”. We have about ten to fifteen that comes from their work places and that. We have our chapel. We have a new initiative, our prayer sofa [2500] where we have a sofa outside the church and everybody that sit on the sofa we will pray. We have bread buddies: any day you can ring the bell and you will get a sandwich, nicely wrapped and beautiful made. We have our feeding scheme that have now decided they will no longer just give from the church, but will go now to the parks, to the bridges, to give food out there. We have opened our church for refugees to do workshops [2529]. With how do you survive in our communities with xenophobic threaten, how do you defend yourself – we do that. We have a policy that we don’t charge, we just ask donation – if you give one hundred rand for a week you can just use the premises. The idea is part of the faith of the church, is what we live by is that if our church were to disappear from this space tomorrow, will the people miss this building if they walk past it. And so that is what we live…And part of our experience that we say, that we want to be the pastor to the people that we don’t know. People must know that there is a church. [2633] And so it’s hard work, you know Martin, that we find ourselves in a setting where it was coming to church and going, people washing their hands when they shake somebody else’s hand, and those kinds of things. And to have the paradigm shifting, it is not about you, it is not about me, but how do we serve others. And one of the demonstrations that we have made was about if you should have a bowl of water and a towel, whose feet will you wash? Whose feet will you wash? [2711]. We can’t choose whose feet we will wash. You wash whatever feet that comes in. And so it is very challenging. Some people are saying we’re moving in the direction where MA002 nearby church 1 are moving into Cape Town? I don’t think so; I think we more different. I think they’re more justice, political, [two inaudible words] and all those kind of things. But we this side looking more at the social, economic sector [2759] of things, the visibility of the church and that. 
MM: 2806: Now is there anything in John Wesley’s life, any stories that you draw inspiration from as you focus on society and evangelism that works through the being of members outside of their church.
MA002: 2826: Well the one thing that we always have in mind is the understanding of failure. We always have that failure in our own strength. And one, on the last two Wesley Sundays we have focused on Wesley’s journey to Georgia, and what a disaster it was, and that. And the processes was there, the plan was there, everything was there. And it didn’t happen. …. One of the lessons that we want to look at is to say, “Let us leave our processes one side. Let us leave our plan one side”. And if we do this mission or evangelism, do we put God first in everything that we do? For people that lives organised lives with calendars, with diaries, timetables, it’s very difficult to place themselves in a world of the unknown, where God is leading. Because we can’t think ahead. We think here, where God is moving now and that. We assume that God will move and what God will do. And for us, and especially for the church, the concept then comes of failure. Will you fail in this? And I’m always reminded that Wesley went into a state of depression after his failure, When he saw the Moravians and all these things being so happy – and that is what we are to draw out. “Lord give us joy in what we’re doing”. [3019]. Take away obligation, take away duty, take away these things and get us passion, get us enthusiasm of what we doing [3025]. And then even though you don’t have the masses – at the current moment we don’t have the masses – we have about individuals that offer their times to come sit at a computer when we do our services, they come play the piano, they come make food, they hand out food as individuals. They comes, they feel that God has called them to this. But again you know I’m always then calling in mind that Wesley, where he went all over the market places, he never got tired, the Gospel meant everything to him; and to us the important thing is - why I don’t like duplications or competitiveness – is that Wesley lived by God’s Word, scriptural holiness. And that need to be our identity. Our identity need to be that this is what God want us to be and to do in our context [3133]. And again, if the AOG or the Baptist or the Moravian are doing fantastic work then God bless them! But we will never compete, because God work uniquely in all of our places.  
MM: 3200: Do you find – I think you’ve partly answered this – but are some of your congregation members more involved in this lifestyle connection than others? And if so, why is that? Why are some people more on board? You know, draw on your personal experience. How popular is evangelism as an activity amongst your people?
MA002: 3233: It’s probably because some people saw I got a lot of energy of what I do, and also being very controversial in my own thinking, because I don’t believe in the status quo, following the status quo, and I can challenge, if I think now this is not what we need to do. Also as probably one of the few Methodists that if something fails, stop it, and don’t continue with it. Many are still sticking with what used to work, the old dimension of doing things, some are excited about it, and some are becoming the stumbling block to continue of things, because they hold onto this for many, many years and it have become their family tradition of doing things. [3329]. But I guess the key that we want to say to the church is that it need to move away from minister ministry then come to congregational ministry. And I think in the past it was the minister’s ministry, and I think that if we focus on minister’s ministry then it dies when he leaves or when she leaves…to the paradigm shifting of what is the congregation’s ministry, the priesthood of all believers? What is it? How does God cause us the ekklesia, the church, how does God cause us to take responsibility or to take part in this call? So the leaders are so excited, but I know that deep down they are looking for this space now just to continue, or to stop. But I think that many have taken the cue of what we need to do for God. 
MM: 3447: What persuades them to take that cue? What are the inner factors that move people to make that commitment to those who don’t belong to the church? I mean, it’s … Why do they do that?
MA002: 3503: “If you love me, follow my commands”. John 15. What I discover personally is a love of Jesus has disappeared in many people’s lives. What I discover is that many had a love for the Church but the love of God was gone. But people that have discovered the joy of Jesus and for God are the people so enthusiastic, and on board, because they’re doing this for Jesus, they’re doing this for God.[3520] And I think for me the first point or the starter is get people in love with Jesus again. It’s people to get excited when they wake up to talk to God and every opportunity they have to talk about God. And when they do things within the life of the church they’re doing it for God.[3543] Unless we have that want – and in my own context here that is what was the main lacking point. The words was that “we have kept this church together” You can’t keep a church together – that is God’s work! That is God’s work. You can’t take God’s work out of God’s hands! [3626]. That’s God’s work! And so you have tried to take the place of God and you have lost yourself. And so when they come back to that love of God, that personal…and the difference that people can sense: the joy, the commitment, the enthusiasm, the sacrifices that people continue now to make – because it’s for God.
MM: 3708: Yes, that is a very comprehensive answer to my little question. I think you’ve largely covered question seven, which is “Does your church take responsibility for situations in the world that are not directly related to your church life?” You know, and I think you’ve outlined … is there anything else that you would like to say? What’s the relationship between evangelism and social responsibility? I think for you it’s social responsibility AND evangelism, something like that? And is there any way in which John Wesley furthers this discussion in any way?
MA002: 3749: Remember there is no Gospel unless you’re part of the social Gospel. And for me part of justice and service is very important. The old department of the Methodist Church: Christian Citizenship Department – that is the face of the church. We cannot do justice unless we evangelise; we cannot evangelise unless we do justice. Micah 6:8 live justly, do mercy, walk humbly. We cannot do it, we can’t do it without the other. We can’t love God and hate neighbour, we can’t hate neighbour and love God. So that of just and service and evangelism goes hand in hand in hand. It’s not two entities for me. It’s the two in one. It’s the life that I portray in the church is the life I need to portray outside, and Wesley teach us about that we live outside is like that we’ve got to live inside the church, and part of our practice we try to teach is how we can’t live two lives. Paul Tillich says, “The totality of our being, the core of our existence that loves God”. And so part of all of that allows us to give all that to him. [3922]
MM: 3930: Let’s look at question eight. I’d like to look particularly at conversion. In your opinion, what are the most important factors involved in conversion? You’ve talked about this need to recover a love of God, of Jesus, you know…Is conversion important for Christian discipleship? How does it happen? Is there new information that people need in order to be converted? Does conversion make any difference? Are some people more converted than others? And how does your understanding of conversion relate to Wesley’s theological emphases? Just go for it!
MA002: 4016: I love this question! Just let me say: many people have a private, a personal journey, it’s person decision, but it’s not a private witness. [4037] And I think where we make the mistake, is that where that do take place, it becomes private, people are private about it. We must have, people need to be vocal about it, we need to live out the life. And I speak in the context of the church, is that…very private. Compared to my background where I come from in MA002 suburb 9, it’s very public. [4110]. It’s about people not shy, lifting up their hands when they want to make a commitment, or recommit their lives to Jesus. It’s part of the norm of the church. My current context, it’s almost like it’s alienated, which is sad. Even our form of numbers, of returns, in the Methodist Church, there’s no line, under church growth/evangelism, there’s no line that indicates “church growth by conversion”. [4146]. Which asks the question: does the Methodist Church take conversion seriously? 
MM: 4200: OK! I am very interested in this! This is directly on point for my subject!
MA002: 4202: What is our understanding of conversion, and that?  Is our understanding of conversion only a public confession at confirmation? Does it go much deeper than that? 
MM: 4218: What would Wesley say?
MA002: 4219: What would Wesley say and that? Wesley every sermon of him led people to conversion. It was part of his ethos, part of his life, part of his character. Even though the people say he lived a miserable life, but his message [4235] that he’s portraying was the conversion was the core. And we can use the theological words of “justification” – being put right with God, and that’s what we do. We take conversion by the process just of justification. Which is the starting process; but in the church what is much needed is the second part, “sanctification” the sanctifying, the continual process. Paul says, “that I give my life every day over to him” – and it’s not the once-off, and I think that’s where we lacked. Is that we think that “I have been in church for so many years that I’ve known Jesus”; but I sometimes ask the question “Is it the same Jesus?” Is it the same Jesus? Because the Sunday School song says “Every day with Jesus is sweeter than the day before”. And so if you have not grown, it can’t be the same Jesus…. And so in my current context is that even when the conversion call goes out which is what happened many times, it’s a silent thing. … a silent response. Mainly because I am very much charismatic – more charismatic than evangelical – don’t say that to the Methodists, but OK – is that I’m used to the spontaneousness of lifting up your hands, publically professing, standing up, coming up. Believing that everybody can say, “I want to give my life to Jesus” but if you mean it, Stand up! Make this public profession! Which I think that in the setting where I am, in the conservative setting, and in the affluent settings of the church lack deeply compare to those in townships and communities [4454].  So my understanding of conversion where we are now – we might have all these resources and that sort of things, but we lack deeply.
MM: 4516: Well question nine I think has been largely dealt with – is evangelism a formal part of your church program or is it an ad hoc activity. But is there anything else you’d like to say, you know, maybe under that do some people who attend church regularly need to be evangelised or not? And who is there out there who might need to experience some good news? You know, what approach do you take to those who aren’t Christian? Are there any practical boundaries that limit where you go and who you speak to, and who you contact in an evangelistic way?
MA002: 4558: Well, just to say now it’s not the ad hoc, it needs to be the face of the church. It’s non-negotiable. Because I believe that God appointed the ministry of seeing, and that person need to lead the church where God leads the church to. We don’t need to ask permission to do God’s work in the church, that is my own understanding. For example, if I need to do a funeral I don’t need to have anybody’s permission; baptism or whatever. It’s part of God’s work, I will do that. But evangelism, unless…if we don’t do evangelism then we’re inward looking. And when we’re inward looking eventually you die.[4658]. Trevor Storey says these words: “People who are inward looking, you’re actually hanging yourself and you’re dying a slow death.” So true.  
MM: 4717: OK, I hear you. Are there any practical boundaries would you say that limit your witness in Cape Town, the witness of your people? Sort of practical things? Demographic, geographic, historic maybe?
MA002: 4738: I think part of socio-economic as well, times have changed. Where both parents work, people work, the time limitation as well. Stumbling blocks to get the right people, the gifted people in to lead your home cells or your ward systems. The availability of people. Those are a little bit of stumbling blocks, to do that. We encourage people the new form of small groups of today, and it’s done many times in the charismatic, Pentecostal setting where two, three, four people are gather, they form a small group and do what God calls them to do. We like to look at the bigger numbers and then to start doing things, and I think that part of that is that the paradigm shift, that the mind-set, Martin, that needs to take place, that we need to look away from the quantity, we need to see what is the quality, or what is in our own capacity that we can put into that. [4900]. But I also think that one of the stumbling blocks is that – and that’s my own perception – when people do it for the sake of obligation, of routine, of doing that. And I guess that part of the Methodist Church becoming a “Strong Discipleship Movement” I think that is the goal where we need to go and what we want to achieve. Coming back to where I started is investing in that core group. It is that core group that continue to practice evangelism where they are. And to allow the fire to spread or continue in that line. Ja…ja…the other form of that is the ecumenical movement. Maybe also to say because we have become so inward looking, our own denomination, that we do not find ecumenical church doing things together. [5003]. Methodist church and Anglican church have now made a partnership and have things together the last three months. But there’s more than just two churches in MA002 suburb1. And many people build their own kingdoms and that. But example, if there is two … in this radius of five hundred meters, there is only two evening services. MA002 nearby church 1, which is now at the old [government office] office, and the Methodist Church. No other evening services in that. Of all the churches here, again, if you put all our membership together, we have the majority of people that come from outside of MA002 suburb1. And even if you look at what we do in our community, as churches, the NGOs outclass us for what they are doing. The church voice in our community has died. [5122]. That is the sad thing. 
MM: 5133: Thinking from the point of view of outsiders, what does an outsider find most persuasive in the life and words of the Christian community? What’s most persuasive? What are the people in your community beyond your church thinking and what are they offended by? Is there some way of limiting those offences or are they inevitable?
MA002: 5209: Well, mainly the outsiders in our community is the people in MA002 suburb1 passing daily. Case number one, because at six o’clock then MA002 suburb1 is quiet. There’s nobody here. Everybody’s gone home. So the effect is the question we need to ask our church is what makes the church not responsive to those walking past daily? In my understanding our closed doors, our locks on our gates. The people they be allowed to come in. The unlocking our door, the people always think that they want something, are begging for something. We classify people as this or that so other words we put labels on them [5258]. The other side, the outsiders, is that when we look at the ethnographic research we look at outsiders as even part of the church but they’re involved in nothing, those are the people who come to church special occasions. They will say the church has lost its hospitality; the church have not become welcoming anymore; the church is not relevant; there are issues the church don’t speak out.
MM: 5331: So what are some of the current issues that the church is not speaking out on that people think about?
MA002: 5336: Well, I think it’s the social concerns, the socio-economic concerns, very much. About crime; about – I won’t say much about poverty, but some poverty do touch some of the people deeply as well. It’s about our government institution, there’s pain. And then some have just lost total ground away from the church. Church just don’t do it for them anymore. [5416]. The Church is the same Church: it have got to move on. And I guess specially like all of churches here in the MA002 suburb1 can say, one thing that we lack except MA002 nearby church 1 – the only church that can say they have the most vibrant young adults and youth. Because their music or their culture attract that. But all the others not. What causes the church, the mainline churches, not to attract these people? Have we not – don’t want to use the word – move on with the times? But are we stuck in our old routine of doing things?  So example, if people come to church after ten years and the same type of order of service? The same thing. And so people ask these type of questions. [5524]. I went to – and I think that inspired me a lot – to Helderberg Dutch Reformed, last year October. And then what’s wonderful is that they have story tellings in every service. …. They have people coming and so the one I was there, one in a wheelchair. And he was an accident. And he tell us the story, the mother tell us the story about how she felt, how could this happen, about how her son did so good in sports and lost everything, even lost his friends, and all those things; the loneliness that came in. But said the moment when the church stand in…she told the church, “It’s because of you that I am what I am today, because of your cover, because of you stepping in.” And when I spoke to Breda afterwards, one of the ministers, he said, “Storytelling is even more important than the sermons for them in their service because people get so excited to see what God is doing and how God is helping them to achieve these things. [5651]. And I think part of our setting daily in our churches is parliamentary setting; we speak most of the time. And we think it’s okay. I went to a service in Khayelitsha, just about a month ago, and this minister and his wife stood on the stage and they said that they…it was an interview. The congregation could ask them questions about their lives. It was an interview. And there it was, finish and klaar. No close in prayer. Just a benediction. So different.  No I’ve drawn many inspirations of the different forms of evangelism, of doing things. And part even in the Mission Department, we also say now “Let people tell stories, man. Let us hear these things”. 
MM: 5757: Anything in the history of John Wesley that relates to this, that you can think of?
MA002: 5809 [long pause] Well I think of storytelling probably would be Charles when he invited his brother before his conversion, to say, “Come”, when John had lost all his passion, to say “Come! There’s a society meeting. Come. Come and see, come and listen” Maybe that’s what we need to do. Just come! The same words when Andrew said “Come and see, we have found the Lord!” I think sometimes God calls us just to come and listen. Listen to stories. And the last one, let me say – I see budget there! Very bad of setting money aside.
MM: 5908: OK, question ten is about budget What percentage of you annual budget is spent on it?
MA002: 5908: They gave me less than one percent of budget this year for mission. I’m telling you. Look at my budget. My budget is about R600,000, so plus R120,000 so R750,000 for the year and they’ve given me R5000! Less than one percent! 
MM: 5945: But the minister’s paid! Aren’t you paid to evangelise? 
MA002: 5950: Ja, ja but we talked about what money to be used for mission. What do we use as a congregation in our community for mission in our community. I think that is important.
MM: 10010: Maybe I’d just like to cover than ground just before we close: What ways are you involved in evangelistic mission? You’ve talked about weddings and funerals, are there any other specialist ways, ways where you are …where an ordinary congregation member wouldn’t do, it’s got to be you?
MA002: 10043: In this local society I do anything pastoral, wherever the need is. But I have not in the last year, just over a year probably not, but I am also an evangelistic preacher to go out and do missions, campaigns. I’ve done a few in my home church, a few extended in MA002 church 11, September 2013 I did a weekend Mission in MA002 church 12 Namibia. That is my passion, to do week-missions. Even in preaching, that is my passion. So when I’ve time and if people invite me then if that is where God wants me to be, that is where I go. That is actually my heart. 
MM: Yes, I hear you. And I mean is there anyone else in your congregation who COULD go down to the courthouse and invite people to come along to the services?
MA002: 10153: Ja, there is, there is. In fact I will take that person today with me. I think that is a very good idea, to take that person today with me, that they can actually see what I’m doing and do exact same thing. 
MM: 10206: Now here’s a fantasy situation: the church is given ten thousand Rand to spend on persuading people who somehow are not in your church to come into your church. What would you do with that ten thousand Rand?
MA002: 10222: I will make a lot of banners. And I will speak on current issues, what is happening. In our own context, what is happening at our courts. And use it for picketing, silent picketing. We have high-profile cases that is happening at the courts, where the church need to voice herself. For me again it’s not about the amount of people; it’s about people finding God, feeling God, sensing God in the current situations. The people in the church have enough money, although they don’t give that money. The people, the church have enough money. And sometimes when we do get those money we need to use it effectively. So I would utilise that money where the mainstream of the people, I will call it my church, is, on a week base, walking up and down, sitting here where the mainstream is. I think the church needs to be more effective in the week. My prayer is that the church door needs to be open if possible seven days a week. That is my prayer. My prayer is that we need to, when people knock at the church’s door, to come in, then there need to be someone who can pray for that person, or just listen to that person. That’s where my money will go, that’s where my money will go. There will always be food to give, but how do we empower, how do we show presence of God in the church in these places. [10430]
MM: 10430: OK, well, thank you very much. I am very grateful to you. 
7736 words
2015-03-11 MX003
M
36
MX003 Suburb 1 Methodist and MX003 Suburb 2 Methodist
MM: 0000: Well, it’s the eighteenth of March 2015, and this is Martin Mostert in conversation with the reverend MX003. First of all, thank you very much for agreeing to do this interview. And everything will be very confidential, and I would just like you to speak from the heart about these issues. We’ll see where we go. For the sake of the record I see that you are the minister of two churches. Tell me about any evangelism that happens through these churches, or through the members of these churches. Are there any stories of what evangelism looks like in 
MX003: 0100: Thanks so much. I’ll start with MX003 Suburb 1 Methodist. Even though we are in a context of a loss of evangelism in the general understanding of evangelism, we do run for the past twenty years, I’ve been told, I just came in in the past three months, for the past twenty years on a Thursday there’s a feeding scheme that we do at MX003 Suburb 3 settlement. So it’s been happening consistently every Thursday. So basically as much as the church is not that big…between forty and fifty membership, but every Thursday as part of the way how we show the love of Jesus Christ, that’s one big way that we evangelise, not only to ourselves but to the community at large. So we do a feeding scheme there…I’ve been there two times; one of the time the guys went away and I had to step in. And it’s such moving, you know, to see people are really in need. Yes, someone gonna say, “Yes, how long are you going to feed these people? You know? [0214] Why don’t you teach them?” You know there are some other people who bring a different form of evangelism you know, letting people be able to fish for themselves; But we do that one. And another one, there’s another school, when I look at the records, of the disabled one. But we normally do it once a year, we do something for them. [0238]. Another event for the evangelism is called Harvest. That particular event, it’s meant for the poor. For this year we will be having a Harvest Sunday on the 22nd of March, so Reverend Harry will be taking that sermon, I will be preaching somewhere else. So at MX003 Suburb 1 that is one of the really cornerstone of evangelism. One other custom that we have is when I give pastoral visitation; in my understanding of evangelism, that is one way of evangelism that I do on a weekly basis. Visiting people at the hospital; visiting people at their homes in Cape Town….. So I was just saying, in this context that is how I can do evangelism. [0353]. Otherwise you can say a march, that’s one way of going to the streets, that’s another way of going to the streets. Not only bound in church on a Sunday. For example another aspect of evangelism that I do for the people every Wednesday at MX003 Suburb 1 I have a bible study – so that’s another form of evangelism. Not only sitting there and preaching but allowing people to experience God deeper. So those are the things I can think of at the top of my mind and what we do. But when I go and visit one person, it is my experience that I don’t only come across that person; I come across other people, and I invite them when I share in the table of the Lord, and that is evangelism. And that is what is happening in MX003 Suburb 2, it’s not only in MX003 Suburb 1, and in MX003 Suburb 2 it’s similar to that. In MX003 Suburb 2 there is another bigger portion because of the size of the congregation. [0507]. They’ve got groups, mission groups; for example there is another mission group similar to the feeding one, there is another mission group, like they call themselves the mission group. They go to the marginalised and visit them just to share their experiences and share the love of God, and one of the ways when they share the love of God, and one of the ways they share the love of God I remember in the past they went to another – I would say – squatter camp in the bush, whereby they brought some food because there were some of the people who did not have anything to eat. And in those places where you find that those people, as much as they don’t go to church, where they need that sense of evangelism, and we have the opportunity to bring the good news. [0554]. So those are the kinds of evangelism activities we do in both societies. Obviously the [inaudible word] at MX003 Suburb 2 is bigger than that at MX003 Suburb 1
MM: 0610: How many members at MX003 Suburb 2 and MX003 Suburb 1?
MX003: 0612: Last night we took the stats. Currently we’re looking at 427. So that’s quite big.
MM: 0623: Now when you look at MX003 Suburb 2 and MX003 Suburb 1, can you in your mind think of some people who recently experienced conversion? Maybe you want to tell me how you see conversion as well. And tell me what they converted from and what sort of impact that conversion has on their experience?
MX003: 0648: OK, fine. As I said, I would not have any stories because I am just learning, but I do have … recently, last Sunday, it was my weekend off and I visit both of my churches, like I did at MX003 Suburb 1. So in MX003 Suburb 2 there was a session whereby the preacher who was conducting the service, opened up for people to do testimonies. And in the past two weeks there was a spiritual weekend with the Youth Alpha, in cooperation with [MX003 nearby church 1] Anglican Church. …. So they went on the spiritual weekend, and one of the young girls she stood up and she said when they asked her how was the experience, and she said, “All I can say, I don’t know if I can say I have been converted, but all I can say is that I felt the touch of Jesus Christ when I was on that spiritual weekend.” In my understanding as I was listening to her I felt, Yes! That is a conversion. And I will be teaching them the confirmation class next week, because we send them to Youth Alpha and then Confirmation Class, and so they don’t understand when you talk about conversion and being born again, and all they can say is “I’ve been moved”, or “I’ve been touched”. And so, because you see the kids’ commitment, you know, in the church, one can’t say for instance the lifestyle at their places of stay, but I can see commitment to church. And also another one in MX003 Suburb 1, Abie, you know Abie [0838] they shared with me a moving experience, you know, that he was struggling for a couple of years to see, they went to all the doctors, could not help. But the people were praying for them, for him. And he believe that it was the prayer that assisted him, although the doctors said there is nothing they can do, you know. Someone said, “Just relax. Stay at home, just relax”. And he said he just relaxed and he did not receive more medical treatment. But he felt that it was the grace of God at the time of confusion, at the time of not knowing what’s happening to his life, something touched him, you know. In my understanding, as you ask the question about conversion, conversion is [0930] not a once-off thing. As like Abie would say, “I met Christ in that year, and twenty years down the line I did not see”. But he felt that the hand of Jesus Christ caused it…that’s …. So now he could see, because of those prayers. Today he can even read – he takes the minutes at the meeting. 
MM: 1021: That’s fantastic. Help yourself to milk and sugar and get yourself under way while I ask you the next question. This one is difficult for you because you’re new in the circuit, so you’ve only been three months at the church. But you do say that you have been looking at the figures. In the last five years would you say the congregations at MX003 Suburb 1 and MX003 Suburb 2 have grown, or stayed much the same, or have shrunk in terms of numbers?
MX003: 1049: I would say the stats for MX003 Suburb 1 show that they have went down.  But there is a prospect of my position of getting back the numbers, you know. I have looked at the history of MX003 Suburb 1 in those five years. It used to be packed – but now it is a different atmosphere, but there’s the potential. …. And in MX003 Suburb 2, you know it’s in the culture of the community; the people are very much committed to the church. But if I were to say the average, that growth that has been there, there’s been a decline of people moving to other churches. But the young ones, when they come to the stages of maturity, they will come back. And when I look at the stats it’s that you know people they get confirmed and then they will leave, they will have kids, they want the kids to be baptised there, let them grow and be confirmed, and then they disappear. And there are so many things that disturb the youth at that age, you will be aware which are drugs, [1219], and it’s a bit challenging for the church to manage that. Drugs and gangsterism. So at that age, if you listen to the parents, they go to the streets. But they do their best, the parents: baptise them, move them out to confirmation, and after that they disappear. When they have got their own offsprings they will bring them. So I would say in terms of…it has stayed very much level, because others go, others come back. 
MM:1303: When new people come in – and this is drawing on your general experience as well I suppose, because you are such a recent appointment – but where do new people at MX003 Suburb 2 and MX003 Suburb 1 come from? Do they come through the process of conversion, or do they move from other churches, or – you’ve talked of people coming back when they have children, so it’s a life stage. Maybe through specialist outreach ministries – we’ve talked about Alpha. Maybe there’s other things like that?
MX003: 1341: With my information of almost three months, I would say, in my assessment and understanding, what the people there, the stewards tell me, I would not say it’s conversion. There is a part of conversion, but as you say it is the culture thing, it is a way of life, that there is an expectation that at the age of 15, 16, one needs to be confirmed. [1404]. And those who have left for reasons of wanting to explore another churches. People will often say, “No, MX003, there’s a drop, but they are going to come back, you know, they want to explore.” Hence, if I can say, yesterday at the Staff meeting, Vincent, when I spoke about the context of what’s happening in the mission groups in terms of the teachings, he said it’s a bit concerning he want to  move in there slightly in terms of the Wesleyan heritage, I see the way of worship, the worshipping style, it’s predominantly Pentecostal. Not to say that Methodist worship is not spiritual, but it is really Pentecostal …. At MX003 Suburb 2. I want to suspect it’s because of the other Pentecostal churches around [1507] that draw people. And there’s another one almost directly opposite but very much to another angle, moving to the side; that maybe as much as it said in the books, and people like Vincent, that it used to be a conservative church in terms of our Methodism, but due to time and the things that change in society, they probably changed to fit. I’m making those speculations, you know, because they almost compete with us or we compete with them in terms of how we do worship. So I want to believe that it’s part of life and yes, there is another portion that I have seen on the records that the youth, being recorded, that out of the fifteen of the children, or youth that went to confirmation it was that there were three, if not two, that were… publically said that they had met Christ and were converted.  So there is a percentage of conversion [1616]. But the biggest percentage, as you would see on that ratio, is part of the tradition.
MM: 1630: Yes, that’s an interesting observation. That’s the sort of stuff I’m looking for – that’s very helpful. Do people come in from any other language and culture groups? Tell me about the sort of demographics…no, no, let’s leave that till later. Um, have you noticed any trends – I suppose it’s too early – in those who leave the church? You’ve already talked about the young people who get confirmed and then leave to go explore. Are there any other trends there amongst people who leave, who move out? Or aren't you in a position to see?
MX003: 1714: You know, I will just tell you with one: what I’ve been told and two: what I’ve observed, to kind of confirm some of the things they told me, … if we talk about MX003 Suburb 1, in MX003 Suburb 1 they talk about Group Areas Act that has affected the membership, and then there are some other factors. For example maybe minister-related reasons for leaving, you know, not seeing eye-to-eye with the minister, that I have noted from the conversation of the people. And in MX003 Suburb 2, both churches I can just say, MX003 Suburb 1 and MX003 Suburb 2, they have the set-up of a village, if you know what I mean. In the villages in the rural areas you will find that you will find that in this land, in this village, there is a particular clan that is dominating. So in MX003 Suburb 2 there are particular families that are dominating, very much signifying that if you were to do a tree there you would find that there are say eight families there [1830] And of those families you find the descendants are making up the church. Similar thing in MX003 Suburb 2. It’s very good, it’s very good but it’s danger. It’s very much dangerous, and I was warning the guys, saying to them, “Listen, you are related – someone says the wife and the husband and the child and the niece” those are the kinds of words. If I would say 10% is non-related, but the rest is relatives. But some of the people go because related people fight over small things and big… and you find there is another incident right now, that I need to look in, you know, that the people they didn’t see eye to eye, someone spoke something from the church in the family that makes it just catch a lot of conflict. [1930] So the reasons, I’m just saying are very much, yes, minister, it can be people like normal one, if they did not see eye to eye with one who is a leader, in leadership, so they say, “I’m going to go. I’m leaving here”. In MX003 Suburb 1, the first time when I arrive I’m hearing that Sunday School teachers didn’t move on because they were asked how they wear in church is not churchy, you know, the young girls wearing miniskirts or that, you know, that disturbs people. [2010]. And also it disturb the young ones as well because I mean they don’t understand this mentality of being told how to wear. That is an issue. It is an issue in MX003 Suburb 1. But in MX003 Suburb 2 everything is very much relation driven for people to leave the church, and not just exploring. 
MM:2043: that’s very interesting – I’ll pursue that with other ministers. Do you have people who attend church services very seldom but whom you still count as church members, or who still count themselves as church members? But they come very seldom. How does that dynamic work? When do they come? Why do they come? Why do they still count themselves as members?
MX003: 2108: Yes we do. Most of those people I’m going to speak on the elderly people. In both churches where I serve they have been in church while they were having energy and the zeal to come physically, but now physically they are unable to come to church. It becomes impossible for them to move. Sometimes they go when they can. I respect those ones and I look after them, I make time for them. Even the young ones, I had another one who had a bullet here [indicating the back of his skull] that was removed; he could not go to church and I heard about him and I went to see him, I visited him a couple of times – not because he was in hospital, he was at home. Those who are in hospital I go. You find some people, you know that there are some people, they call themselves church but they only come for Easter for example [2216], we know such. But generally of that 427 people at MX003 Suburb 2, I don’t see them every Sunday. But when I started preaching there in December, not in December in MX003 Suburb 2, in January, in the big events I will say that it’s full, very full. Sunday I always get good Sundays, so it’s always my belief and my way of working I will follow, before I cross the people off the book. You have one who will say, “You are not a member in good standing” you know, I need to find out. [taps table lightly]. What is that causes that person…I can’t scratch it. [2259]. 
MM: 2304: What percentage of your congregation would you guess are peripheral members, not really involved in the ongoing life of the church? Because you’ve got big numbers – more than four hundred at MX003 Suburb 2. What percentage would you say are not really involved, sort of on the edge?
MX003: 2325: If I were to just talk about MX003 Suburb 2, I would say the involvement of the people there is about 90%, so the non-involved are the difference of 10%. When I look at MX003 Suburb 1 it’s the other way round. We find that of the 50-60 members I have being fully involved ten to fifteen maximum. Even fifteen is big. For example in my Bible Study on Wednesdays a good number would be about six. 
MM: 2415: It’s interesting the different dynamics of different churches! Now…please describe your congregations in terms of languages, culture-mix and socio-economic factors – things that maybe you’d like a visiting preacher to know about your congregation before preaching there. 
MX003: 2428: OK. I will just say overall they are opposites of each other. Starting with MX003 Suburb 1, in MX003 Suburb 1 in terms of demographics….dominantly female; I would say 70-30 being men. And in terms of socio-economics at MX003 Suburb 1 I would say very much elite and marginally elite. We’ve got a lot of elderly people there. But even the elderly people I will not characterise them as being poor. In terms of the language I would say it is Afrikaans, dominantly Coloureds, the home language is Afrikaans, and I’ve got very few white English-speaking, very few, very few. And then in terms of the membership I would say 90 coloureds and if we look at the books, ten white people. Black people, no. Except just yesterday I did a visitors’ leaflet because I see a very big potential of the black congregations who are very much non-South Africans. [2624] They come here to study between three to five years. There was another one two weeks ago, who’s doing his PhD in clinical psychology at UCT. So I’ve got lots of students coming from these African countries. And then sometimes I’ll have others who come from overseas for three months, you know, black and white. Then going to MX003 Suburb 2 I would say a hundred percent coloured. Afrikaans speaking. And when I stand there I speak English. I try one or two phrases in Afrikaans. I do try. …. In terms of the socio-economic classes or conditions there, I would say the majority of the people are poor. They are poor; and there is another distant elite, at MX003 Suburb 2, and only you’ll pick that on Sundays. You look at the number of cars that are parked. … It is a car indicator that people are driving from different parts, not only MX003 Suburb 2, you know, even outside of MX003 Suburb 2 to go there and worship. So we’ve got a mixed…but the majority of the people are very much unemployed [2802] A very big proportion of people are unemployed. And another big level of it is those who are employed they are very much on I would say the unskilled labour. And you can count the professionals there, the ones who are saying that they come, that I want to believe that they are professionals, there is another potential there you know, of the gangsters, the gangster mistresses and masters, because I have picked up on their conversations that there is another one who passed on last year who was active in church but he was a gangster. He was the leader of the gangsters. And so it’s a very complex and dangerous setup, that one. And sometimes it takes someone a lot like me to be freely and pronounce prophetic voice and action, you know. [2911] But I’ve made a decision when I first went there, if they want to torture me for that let it be, but I would be standing for the truth; I’m not scared to stand there. But speaking about this socio-economic conditions and such just to encourage people there to be positive there because we find that there’s a lot of spiritualising of life and practicalism. So that could be the reasons of some of the portions of the socio-economic conditions. So that’s the set-up. MX003 Suburb 2. And if I can just say – how I love this one – if I can assist people to redeem themselves out of this situation [3011] . They’ve got statements like, “We’re on the other side of M5” . They’ve locked themselves to what is called the low levels. And that is not helpful
MM: 3029: OK. I’m going to ask a question about that later, so we’ll get back to that. Now do you teach people about evangelism, and if so, what aspects do you emphasize? So this is more looking at your thinking about evangelism. We’ve already started talking about it. So you’ve got ideas about evangelism – how would you ideally put that across to people?
MX003: 3100: I’ve got, like now in this three months the ideas about evangelism I have spoken about in the meeting, and like for example another simple thing, hey, like somebody, we had a high tea on the Valentine’s day, on the Saturday, and somebody in the MX003 Suburb 2 community thought it was a harvest day, whereby they bring their veggies and all this kinds to church. Brought it there, and one of the stewards, on my way out because I had to go home, I’d been in funerals the whole day, and I had another assignment in the evening…so on my way on the way out to the car she ran to me, “Sorry Reverend MX003, somebody brought some veggies here for the harvest and it was not the time for harvest. Can I take the veggies and split it among the leaders?” And I said, “No, no! You cannot do that. You cannot do that. What kind of a message are you bringing to the people about the type of evangelism that we do. You can’t do that. That food, it must … you know the poor people here, it must go to the poor. Please, it cannot go to the leaders”. So, and I spoke about it in the meeting afterwards and I said, “Guys, let us understand one thing: why Jesus Christ evangelised. He evangelised you know to redeem and give the life to the poor. Not to forget about those who are rich – you know what was happening in the time of Jesus: the system was skinning the poor. So we can’t continue with that – we need to bring life. So and in my program for the confirmation class I have included some of this laws in terms of how we do what we mean by evangelising, the means of evangelism [3259] and I have also referred ourself to the mission imperatives of the church, how we do it. So, in the pulpit, it’s always my space, depending on the passage that I … I will talk about those things that brings the Word of God to light, that evangelise the people. So even those, and even in the Bible study like tonight, and even and in the past week and all the nights I do the study I make sure that when I contextualise it I find out how can it assist people to go outside and [unclear word] it
MM: 3340: I’m interested in this: people need to experience the love of Christ through the actions of his people. What are some of the words they need to hear through that? What are some of the data? Or what do they need to learn cognitively. I’m thinking of words. Words by themselves I agree are not going to get anywhere, but are repugnant – I think you’ve made that clear. But what words do people need to hear to be converted?
MX003: 3435: I would say the words that the … the first one, I would say the umbrella, the love of God, the grace of God. And the transformation in that love of God; which is also what happens to us. And not just the transformation but the development. And they also need to hear words like sharing: that when that love we experience, it’s not love if it’s not shared [3508]. With others. So those key words or concepts in my understanding, were even maybe someone can push it to the level to say that you know when you talk about transformation, we say that word transform, we should not be afraid to be frank about talking about the you know sometimes we get so twisted in our lives, and we think that we cannot be transformed, so I mean talking about the mess situations of the people, can be changed through the love of God. And as you said it’s not just what we say but how we express it, you know, our interaction with others. [3605] And yeah maybe if I were to put spirituality on it and in terms of the understanding of salvation as the last line, we talk about salvation and the significance of the cross of Jesus Christ, you know. What does the cross symbolise? What does it mean to us? Why the cross, why not just a stick?
MM: 3631: Now this evangelism that is both love and word, in the right balance, are there any incidents from the life of John Wesley that you use in communicating, or don’t you go back to that source?
MX003: 3646: No, no I like to use John Wesley – in one word, John Wesley to affirm Jesus Christ. Because when I use John Wesley I don’t like using him as Jesus Christ. I said to the people, “Look at the person that God has ordained to be an example of that grace”. Because John Wesley you know, talking about poor, he taught us how to relate to the poor. That it’s not enough that you who are so [unclear word] to just send it in a bank account. Find the time to go visit and experience, because it will do more good for you for your soul, to go to those people and see how they live. You will be …. And then I remember, it must have been I think it was in last week [3746] I was writing a devotion for the holy week, you know, I used John Wesley’s principle of saving, he started to say to the Methodist people then they were poor people, and John Wesley instilled the sense of diligence and said you must do everything you can to gain. Gain as much as you can, everything; and then he said “Save.” That was good for the Methodist group, but then he realised that later on, hey! That is danger. Because they always save and gain for themselves. He said it’s like throwing gold into the sea if you don’t give that what you have, you know, over and above what you actually need to survive. [3840]. So I always do that, as part of evangelism. I always evangelise. I don’t really speak to the poor; I speak to those who we see as rich, and I talk to them, you know. And I also talk, that I like in John Wesley, he said, he acted on the words of Jesus Christ. Look at how he says, you know, John three verse sixteen, for God so loved the world, you know, that everyone can receive that salvation. And that’s exactly what John Wesley is talking about. You know, and so I said John Wesley, he affirms what Jesus Christ says. So I use him interchangeable with the scripture, because he also respected the scripture; so you find that depending on the context, like their {inaudible word] in MX003 Suburb 2, they are not so much eloquent in Methodism, and I believe that it is one of my key jobs, you know, and I can’t be too radical. I’ve got to work from the confirmation class, to explore it, and then the stewards and then the cell groups. And people will take it bit by bit because I know that their forefathers and foremothers they’ve been so conservative with Methodism. So I want to re-instil that, and so I know that we are a very free church. We can exercise those flavours of being church with Pentecostal, but without losing our Wesleyan heritage. 
MM: 4024: Now question six – thanks very much, this is turning up loads of interesting stuff for me to think about – are some members of your congregation more involved in evangelism than others – evangelism as you have defined it? If so, drawing on your pastoral experience, could you explain the reasons? How popular is evangelism, this living out a loving lifestyle? 
MX003: 4052: I will start with MX003 Suburb 2. I would say, to answer your question, I would say that I gave you the ratio of 90:10, 90 being the fully involved in church. And I want to say that 90% they’re in different classes or different groups of evangelism. For example on Mondays you’ve got the ones for music. They do Brigades and music in the streets, and in the church. And we’ve got the morning prayer-group that is almost fifty-something years in existence – every Tuesday at ten o’clock for all the people, so faithful. So we’ve got a group of people in different groups of evangelism activities within the church. And from Monday till Sunday, let me say till Saturday there are those activities, from elderly to youth. Friday Youth, Saturday reading. Every Saturday ten o’clock there’s a reading club. So that is not only for the MX003 Suburb 2 society members, but it’s open to the members of the society, so we’ve got church youth from the society. That to me it is another form of evangelism [4225] but the others being more than the others I would say that the ten – but most of the people as I say they do something. You know in our understanding that is evangelism, and they do it to spread it to others, you know. So I would say there is 90 more than the 10, you know, if I were to answer.
MM: 4249: OK. Thank you.  What do you think makes the difference? What … the person who has a heart for outsiders, and others, and a Christian who doesn’t? Two Christians, they sit next to each other in the church. Why does this person become a person like this? What persuades someone who’s only interested in inward things to begin to look outwards? What makes the difference?
MX003: 4323: On that question my answer is I want to take it back to the teachings. I blame the teachings. The teachings from the confirmation class; I blame the teachings, the constant teaching post that, you know. From the class meetings. I blame the teachings from ….because I know that the minister and the laity, the clergy and laity, sometimes because of the theme of the church, you find that they are just drawn into that. For example you find that “discipleship” and other people when they hear about discipleship they think of only the twelve, they think of those ones that were there at the table, you know. And I want to believe that it is the teachings that are being given in church. Maybe the other one is in what he got, you know the instruction we get when we begin at church it stays a lot, it is difficult to be changed [4431]. Whoever teaches there needs to be somebody who knows the story, who understand it. I know that we cannot get it, we cannot get there 100%, but somebody who is deeply sound. So I want to believe that it is the teachings that we have received. What was deemed to be the core doctrines and ethos of the church, like here in the Methodist church, that you need … for example, I grew up in a, you need to make sure that your faith, your ticket, to pay your part and all those sort of things, your respect – there was more on respecting the inside church. [4512]  And as I understand the love of Christ, of Jesus Christ, I understood our focus it should be the other way round. To focus more outside, you know. But one would say “No, you need to stand inside” but to stand inside there a tendency of wanting to build a passion for internal matters rather than the outside matters which are the core business of us as Christians. [4542]. So the other one, I want to believe it’s only because we’ve got the light about this evangelism it ought to go outside, go to the nations, go to the nations you know and make disciples of all nations. So I blame on the teachings. For example, one when I say he say “O MX003, you know, he taught these kids to look for those on the outside”. But as much as John Wesley – you look after your family, but your concentration should not be on your family. It’s bigger. Your concentration is bigger than the family. So it all goes on the teachings. When you go there as a minister and you find that, hey, there’s a gap of ..inside evangelism, then you focus on that one. And MX003 focus on outside family. People are only self-centred.  So the solution could be that one needs to balance the teaching.
MM: 4648: Thank you, thank you. I think you’ve spent a long time answering question 7 already, which is “Does your church take responsibility for situations in the world which are not directly related to your church?” Anything else to add there? You do the soup kitchen, there’s the reading club, there’s things in which the church engages, community issues…anything else there?
MX003: 4720: Ja I think I was speaking to another steward from MX003 Suburb 2, I need to go for another visitation of Mrs Adams, she say “I need to go and take my daughter to MX003 nearby suburb, to the library”. “MX003 nearby suburb? What? Is there no library here?” “No, we don’t have a library.” I said, “Is that new? What happened to the Library?” “We never had a library at MX003 Suburb 2, never, ever, ever in the history of MX003 Suburb 2”. And then I said, “But why are you keeping quiet? You should voice out to the officials of government.” “I am in the process of want.” So I’m trying to say there are the things that I just pick up that they are involved in the community. But your question says things which are not related to the church – I believe that all things that are happening in the community, as much as we do not find time to do them, they are related because they are related to church. [4830]. 
MM: 4839: OK then, let’s go on to question 8. In your opinion, what are the most important factors involved in conversion?  I mean we’ve talked about this already generally, a lot of this has come out already, but is there some specific aspects that – now that we’ve primed the pump – what makes conversion? What is conversion?
MX003: 4902: Ja. Conversion. It’s a process, I would say. One could define to say “that moment of realisation about the love and the grace of Jesus Christ”. Being converted from that point of not knowing, if I can say. Sometimes some people say something – I’m going to talk about my context in MX003 Suburb 2 – they grow up, the gangs, the drugs, that’s how they survive. It’s a part of life and they don’t see there is anything wrong with that, you know, because they grew up with that one. And so up until one realises, so that this is not the life that Christ would want, and that will take a process. And that is why even in our understanding of salvation it is a process thing. [5009]. But it needs to start somewhere, with a realisation that we can’t do nothing on our own part. So Jesus Christ believe that direction from the Holy Spirit. 
MM: 5033: So you would say some people are more converted than others?
MX003: 5036: I would…it would be a very much inappropriate statement to make, because like I said I was trying to put it in its simplest form to say your realisation point and my realisation point are different. And that means our progression will happen at different levels. From the point of realisation and accepting this new life, and how to do it, you know. We can never be perfect. It might happen that you realise at this point, while I realise at that point, and I realise that the way I have been touched when I realised it was a different one than you. I would say it would be un-Christ-like to say some are converted more than the others. 
MM: 5141: I just like to ask questions that stir! This process-conversion, how does it relate to Wesley’s understanding of conversion?
MX003: 5153: It relates in the sense you know that Wesley believes, like I said, let’s talk about stages of grace in that salvation. In the prevenient grace, even before we knew that we are in this mess, our Lord…the grace was there for us. He has pardoned us. But now we are now like Paul says the grace is there, all we need to do is access it. Inside that room the grace is there. So John Wesley understood it in that similar fashion that it’s a process, you know, from that point of prevenience, and the point of justification, you know, when we have realised and now we are pardoned. [5238]. Because we have realised, and we enjoy the fruits of justification. And the sanctification, you know. With that process of our way of life, to say that now, the drugs, yes I was taking money, but now the drugs are destroying other people’s lives so now we’ve stopped that and I’m no longer doing it. This is the way life that’s of giving life, you know. [5306]. So with our understanding within the belief with the intervention of that Holy Spirit, that process moves the way how one was before realising, and way it’s changing, progressing to a point whereby Wesley talks about glorification’s grace, when that big day comes and we are complete. But every day we fall short, hence we can’t do it on our own. So we fall short. And maybe in the past ten years in the church everybody said you were very good and then something happens and we just fall short. That life keeps you on moving. If I were to look at you and say, “This man has failed. He was so good when he was in church and that and that and that”, that is a process, because we are not fully. [5408] But when we strive for that holiness, which we call social holiness, those are the elements of John Wesley’s understanding, which is very similar to that simplex way I was trying to say we are busy or in the process of that process of development or transformation. 
MM: 5432: Ja. Thank you, that’s very thought provoking. We’re now looking at the third section of my set of questions, just two questions. The first one is, Is evangelism a formal part of your church program, or an ad hoc activity? I think you’ve spoken to this quite a lot already, about the involvement of people at different levels in missional ways in their small groups. Is there any ad-hoc evangelism activity or is it all programmed? 
MX003: 5522: Ja, I think to answer your question, is it a formal part or an ad-hoc? In terms of our church it is a formal part of being the church. Like I said, it depends on the different context of circuits and societies. Sometimes they put their focus in one pillar of evangelism, like as you understand that we’ve got five of them that define our evangelism. That shows salvation to the people. I find that we draw our energies to one pillar. And you find that it does not balance. So I want to say in my societies like it is in the whole Methodist Church, that is a [unclear word – minute?] part that it is so difficult to balance it because the evangelism is more than just the spiritual, which at times we want to focus on the spiritual, you know, and I like the way how we’ve broken that down in our church, so the challenge is just to balance it out. [5641]. It’s a huge challenge. 
MM: 5653: When you think of, I mean, if the church is an agent of good news, in this five-fold form, who are some of the people in the communities out there beyond you church? Describe some of the people. You’ve already talked about people involved in the drug culture and …what are the people like out there, in reach of your church, who need this good news through your churches? 
MX003: 5725: Ja well I think, if I look at the two contexts, in ...you know there is this mentality of how we’ve institutionalised societies, with the terminologies of ward-counsellors, the new terminology of ward counsellors, that everything has to go past them. Many years ago, and you still find it today, in the rural areas you’ve got chiefs, kings, and all those things. And in the township we have street committees, all those people. And I want to believe that with that structure at hand right now in our societies, those are the people who ought to hear this good news. Because those are the very same people who are the architectures of those stripping the people in societies, of stripping them naked. In various ways. Because in my understanding, when those in the hierarchy higher than them, I would use in the government, from the President’s office, they use the same ward leaders for any activity they portray as life changing but is not life changing. [5908]. But self-enriching for themselves in their society. So I want to believe those are the architectures and engineers in the society, because people believe in them so much. That they don’t believe in themselves but they believe in them when some of them speak they say “OK, it’s coming from Mr so-and-so it must be right. So those are the people who need to hear the good news. So that’s my understanding, it’s absolutely my understanding. 
MM: 5949: In the different culture and language groups that people mingle with when they leave church on Sundays – is MX003 Suburb 2 uniformly Afrikaans? What sort of variety of language and culture and different sorts of humanity do your people mingle with Monday to Saturday?
MX003: 10018: I would say they mingle amongst themselves, and also across the board in the demographics of Cape Town. White people, black people, English speaking, and I want to believe Xhosa speaking in their work places. They do not … there is no employment for them in MX003 Suburb 2, so there’s not that much happening in MX003 Suburb 2, so they need to cross the roads, the major highways, to get to work. They are bound to mingle with such people. So I’m not sure if I have understood your question correctly. [10102]
MM: 10110: I ask the questions to see what they’ll bring up! I asked the question and you talked about crossing the road, the M5. Now that’s like both a physical and a mental barrier, a spiritual barrier between people. Are there any others like that? That limit the potential of your people taking the good news out?
MX003: 10135: Well, number two, there is always a sense that this is very dangerous. I know people are poor in MX003 Suburb 2. But when there is going to be something outside MX003 Suburb 2 there is always a practical complication of the transport. And anything that is going to happen outside MX003 Suburb 2 is always going to be transport. It’s always the constraint, the transport. And just the …for them – I might be wrong – they see things more easier if they do it around there. [10227]. In MX003 Suburb 2. So that to me, the lenses of only looking in MX003 Suburb 2, rather than the other parts. Because everything happens in MX003 Suburb 2. Unlike because MX003 Suburb 1, they are in terms of comparison wise, they are richer, they are better off, so mobility wise they can move. So that is a constraint, it is a big constraint. Even though we can make a plan, that’s always the reason that blocks the thinking, we can’t…
MM: 10314: What would John Wesley say about those “blocks to thinking”? Can you think of any stories from his life? How did he react?
MX003: 10328: I’m just trying to. I recall that John Wesley, first of all he demonstrated in his four quadrilaterals, you know, the way how he thought, you know, he demonstrated the reason, you know, it ought to happen, you know. People need to think out of the box, need not allow themselves to be locked into the traditions and what have they experienced, you know, mobility problems. But when we think, you know, without that kind of mentality that is open, you know, because people they saw their space, and John Wesley realised “The world is my parish” for because he knows it’s not only in MX003 Suburb 2, so think beyond the boundaries, so he always knocked on the  [inaudible word] it’s not only in the MX003 Suburb 2; I go to everywhere. Because you will remember he used a horse. He found simple ways of travel. Travelling. Because he did not have a car for evangelism, that did not stop him to do the evangelism; because he walked up and down. [10442]. So he always is encouraging this thing of the job in my hand; He encouraged the thinking, because he read a lot, he understood even medicine and stuff. Because he was reading, you know. So I would say he would be very annoyed  
MM: 10508: So you’re saying that reading was important to John Wesley. How does that relate to your reading club? What happens at the reading club in MX003 Suburb 2? 
MX003: 10513: Ja, in the reading club, you know, there are a set of books that they read. They just encourage them to read. They just a moment of reading, to sit down and read and reflect. So that’s exactly what happens.
MM: 10533: That is very interesting. Question 10 is Looking at the persuasion aspect of evangelism. What sort of evangelism that outsiders find the most persuasive? What makes outsiders stop and think, and pay attention?
MX003: 10556: Ja, I would say there is, I don’t want to say “the contemporary one” but I would say it’s not [inaudible phrase] you know, prosperity, the prosperity evangelism, that other churches they preach, it draws a lot of attention to people, you know. Hence you find some they want to go and explore, because you know people whose lives are in such a deep mess they want to target anything that calls for changing their life quick, quick, quick, quick. And which in our church that is not the way that we do evangelism. So, I don’t want to lie, people they want to be helped. They want quick ways to get out of the mess. You know, if someone does not have medical care and one says “Come, I will just lay my hands. Come! Your stroke will be gone” [10706]  We’re not saying the power of God does not, but there are some people who claim to do things that they can’t do. You know we have heard stories about that people make representation about false things, just to attract people. So that attracts people. And I want to believe that the salvation we spoke of the conversion which is a process, is what many of the people don’t have enough patience to understand it and experience, so that’s why we have, in my understanding, not many people are prepared to wait and see the fruit of the Holy Spirit. They want to set their own pace, but the Holy Spirit moves at his or her own pace. So it becomes difficult. For example I talk just for a few seconds, the Nigerian story, Joshua, I mean if you look there, it’s not poor people, it’s elite people who flew to Nigeria. [10816]. Who wants development in their lives for work and these things, so they flew up there because the guy said this and that I will do. So they can’t wait to journey with God who is also available in their area. They want to get the microwave and go in quickly, warm it up! So I’m just saying, that attracts people; we can’t run away, it attracts people. It does attract people, but we believe, I believe that God who does his thing in his own time. I get that as a human being I’ll get panic, I’ll say “Please! Answer me!” you know, but it’s human nature [10909]. To always save our lives.
MM: 10913: So what’s available to you?  What do you think are the most attractive points about your church’s offer? Things that are most likely to attract outsiders? 
MX003: 10927: I would say number one stability. There is very much stability in the church, and the church, we demonstrate the way how we do the ministry that even the minister or whoever leads whether they are going to call it a prophet or what, it’s not about the prophet, it’s about God. You know the prophet is just a proxy, he’s just there, it’s not about … Because in other churches you find that they follow.  Here it’s just about Jesus Christ, we just proclaim Christ as the Saviour. So that is distinctly; but most of the people will not have enough patience to understand that.  It’s a process; it takes a long time for people, but the Holy Spirit, to others it’s like this [clicks fingers]. I want to brag about the stability. I want to brag about the history [11030]. Our heritage which God has shown his grace on the people that he has elected like John Wesley, because that this movement which causes church to grow. God has shown his grace, that it was not only because of John Wesley, it was because he wanted to show his love. So that I brag about. I don’t brag about John Wesley. I brag about that God that he made it possible for us to understand him through that man. And the mother and everyone involved in his life. [11110]. 
MM: 11115: That’s good! Last question. Who decides on any budget expenditure for the needs and concerns of people who are not Christians or who are not members of the Christian community? And is there any budget allocation for evangelism and what percentage of your annual church budget would you guess it would be?
MX003: 11140: Yoo! That one! The budget allocation? In terms of the church, in terms of the church, you know, we’ve got what we call the Poor Fund, others they call the Minister’s Discretionary Fund, where the minister decides who he or she gives the money to, for help, to people who are not members of the church. So it’s the minister. The percentage is disgrace to the bigger budget of the church. I know that there is a percentage that’s supposingly to go to the poor – if I’m not mistaken it’s 5% or 10%, 10% of what has been collected. It’s my first church, you know, but it’s the minister that practically with that 10% it’s not the minister, it’s laity and clergy. It’s church management that decides. But in my experience you know you find that if we were to use budget it would be inappropriate for you to say budget, it’s very much ad hoc. When we were doing this program we saw immediately that we’re taking this money to that place [113322]. So there isn’t, even here in the budget, that fixed amount for the poor, other than the money for the administration of the in-house evangelism of the church. So it’s very much on ad hoc, you know, very much on ad hoc. I know that there are organisations within the church, even understood, but also monies are just kept there, when there is a need that comes, to damage control, you know. But there is a small amount in the circuit that’s listed there, a very small amount, almost 10,000. 
MM: 11412: Just to finish with, here’s a fantasy situation. Suppose, just imagine, that somebody gave you R10,000 to spend on evangelism – they say, to spend on evangelism. How would you spend it?
MX003: 11429: Currently, if I were to be in that space personally the first thing I would want to brainstorm with the leaders, because I don’t understand clearly. Yes I do have a good idea of the context, but I would want to sit down and brainstorm with those who have been working in those areas. And then, only then Ok finalise I think we should utilise this money like this.  You know, to capacitate people there in their area, start with the area to be caregivers or look after people not only in MX003 Suburb 2 but just to empower them, you know. [11526]. So I won’t say now, tip of my mind, give, because it would be very ill disciplined of me to do so because I don’t have a deeply justifiable for that 10,000, just to say how. I know that there is a need, but I would want, there are people who have been working there so I want to go and consult. So I would first want to consult to use it there. That will be my response.
MM: 11559: OK, thank you for your wise response. Well Rev. MX003, thank you very much for your participation. I’m very grateful for your time. [11612]
9514 words
2015-11-11 FE004
Age 45
FE004 suburb 1: Methodist Church
MM:: 00.00 Well FE004, thank you so much for agreeing to talk with me [squawk! The room we had our interview had a very loud-voice parakeet in a cage] and answer the questions. I guess the drill is to just answer off the top of your head. There are no right or wrong answers – this is me just trying to get [Squawk! Squawk!] the voices of ministers to be part of the conversation in academic things because I think that very often, well one of my issues is that a lot of stuff is written and said in universities that doesn’t actually take account of people doing the work at the coalface. So it’s all mine management and none of it’s the actual workers. So I’m interviewing you in your position as a coalface worker. And what I’m interested in is just your off-the-cuff philosophy of your ministry and in particular evangelism. Is that OK?
FE004: 0107 Well obviously you will need to interpret it as I interpret it, but we will work that out, ja.
MM:: Ja. And first of all, the first question there is: tell me about any evangelism that happens in your local church or that involves your congregation members in any way. Maybe tell me some stories of what it looks like, what it’s like. And I am deliberately not starting with a definition of evangelism, but working towards it
FE004:0150 Ja, the immediate thing I have to say is we need to talk about what it means to do evangelism. Was it John Stott who said proclamation, presence and  persuasion…and that is not relevant any more. 
MM: 0226: Ja well I would be very interested….what is your congregation involved in that IS relevant in terms of evangelism?
FE004: 0230: Well let me … if I talk can you unpack it and turn it into answers to your questions? Then I’ll just talk about what I think and you can sort it out, and maybe we’ll converge.
MM:: Ja, and I’ve got a whole lot of questions here and I’m basically wanting a conversation with you.
FE004:0253: OK. We have every year a statistics form that the churches are supposed to fill in…which has how many conversions were there in the course of the year? Now at one of the synods I think two years ago somebody said “That’s irrelevant – it’s not a question that makes sense anymore.” Now I kind of got all well of course it makes sense; we still convert people. But I’ve begun to understand that people in our postmodern age, I suppose, are not open to being converted. By and large, if I look at my community, they all believe they’re Christians. 
MM: Are you talking about your church community or your wider community?
FE004: 0343: The wider community; OK, except those who think they’re Muslims. They would say they’re Christians And when something eventually touches or prompts them to start coming to church, to start living a Christianity, they’re unlikely to say they were converted. They’re going to say “I came back to church”. 
MM: Unless maybe they were Muslims
FE004:0416 laughing] Unless maybe they were Muslims, ja. Now you and me with our – maybe I shouldn’t say you – but certain people with our understanding of conversion would say those people weren’t Christians – they hadn’t really committed themselves or if they made a commitment they backslid or whatever, 
MM: I’m very interested to hear what ministers think of this whole conversion thing
FE004: 0438: Well, you’re hearing my thoughts at the moment – who knows what I’ll think in a year’s time, this is where I am at the moment. So the question of evangelism, where you say evangelism ….the world we live in now, you want to say you want to start by convicting people of their sin. The world is so broken. People don’t want to be convicted of their sin People are not in the state to be able to bear the fact that they are sinners. They need to be able to only hear the fact that they are loved and forgiven. And to insist that they can only be forgiven when they acknowledge – you know what I mean? The thing of repentance being a turning around…I did a bit of looking at this thing, metanoia [0533] I don’t know if you have heard the preachers all saying “Metanoia – it’s a turning around”;  but metanoia really means a re-thinking, an afterthought, a thinking again about something. So now when – I’ve preached to people about repentance and said, “now think again about what you’re doing”. It’s a much nicer way of talking into the context we are in, to say “Ja, you’re living the way you’re living – I don’t care if we call it sin or what, but I want you to rethink about the way you’re living”. And then the result is [0602] hopefully a lot of that rethinking is moving into a more committed. So with that understanding, when we talk about evangelism,  - OK we don’t talk about evangelism at our church specifically (and I’ve been there two years now – well not quite two years) It’s hovering across my mind to do some specific evangelism course – Walk Across the Room, or Contagious Christian by Bill Hybels – but I don’t think we’re there yet for the people. What we are focused on, our mission objective, one of our mission objectives for this year, was to create a sense of family within the church by reaching in to each other and reaching out to others. [0702]. So in a sense that has been an evangelistic exercise, in that our whole being is based around creating a family which invites people in and welcomes people in. This is going to take a lot of unpacking – I’m just going to talk but it’s easier for me than to try and 
MM: 0733: “Do you have some sort of little definition of evangelism in your mind that you sort of work towards, or hasn’t it worked out that specifically?
FE004: 0743: I think our goal is to – I wouldn’t have used the word evangelism in the same context – our goal is to create, hey, transforming discipleship movement stuff, you know! To create disciples, to get people whose lives are changed [0800], and who ultimately would want to bring about the Kingdom of God on earth. And as we form people into that, as people buy into that mission, I guess, I would say that they are evangelised, then we’re winning [0814]. That’s where we want them to be. But I just don’t use…I don’t use “evangelism”…it’s…
MM:.0821 Do you think that it sort of ties people too much into a redundant way of thinking about the subject? 
FE004: 0831: Yes
MM: 0833: Ooh! That won’t do! That’s me feeding you a line! But I think that’s what you’re getting at?
FE004: 0840: Mm, mm. Yes. As soon as you start talking about evangelism people get a mind-set and a thought of going and knocking on doors, and “Are you saved, brother?” kind of thing. Which, I mean, I’m not saying that there’s not a space for that. It’s just that FE004 suburb 1 is not there now, you know what I mean? 
MM: 0906: Are there any people in your church at all who’ve experienced some sort of conversion experience in the sort of classic thing
FE004: 0915: In the last two years that I’ve been there?
MM: 0918: Or that you know of. You know, some people wave it around like a banner…and how do they describe conversion? You’re talking about a much more thoughtful process or you are talking about a thought-rich process. How do people in your congregation describe it?
FE004: 0946: It’s going to vary from person to person. 
MM: OK, so you haven’t picked up a trend, have you?
FE004: 0950: There’s not going to be a trend. My congregation is incredibly diverse. All the people older than me are going to have a particular way of looking at it, which is the sort of way that you are trying to get at where there is traditional evangelism , they’ve done evangelism courses in their youth. It would have been a thing where they have done a course where they have gone and knocked on doors. I don’t know what FE004 suburb 1:’s history is. I’ve never heard anybody say…They’ve done Alpha previously. We’re doing Alpha now which was again intended as an evangelism thing. [1035] Ja, I mean you take a risk coming to me because I am not going to give you traditional, down the line answers. You’re going to get …
MM:1041: It’s not a risk! You are specially selected because I thought you MIGHT think differently
FE004: 1042: Do you know Rick Warren’s concentric circles?
MM: 1050: Yes. I’ve come across the idea
FE004: 1050: That is a very useful idea if you don’t want to talk evangelism, of drawing people from the outside toward the in. And I would say that’s really kind of my background philosophy, without really being explicit about it in any point. But the idea is that you draw all – or the funnel. In the youth ministry they use the funnel….as long as it’s the coming in thing, you know. As long as we’re spiralling in. …..
MM: 1143: Question three: I’m looking to see whether there is a connection between evangelism and church growth. Moving in down the circles, would you estimate that your congregation has grown, stayed more or less the same or shrunk in numbers? 
FE004: 1219: I’ve only been here two years now, and the dynamic there, whether one is focused on evangelism or not is going to be entirely irrelevant because there is such great, hassles have been, well, ministers coming and going. The details are not really relevant; I’ve been there two years; the minister before me was there for two years; the minister before me for one year but she was suspended for half of that year; before that was a minister who left early with an abrasive personality. Before that there was a minister who had been there for 16 years and they still love him. FE001 referent minister 1, and they would still have him back tomorrow..
MM: 1302: Sho! This sounds like a hardship posting for you. Do you get extra pay?
FE004: 1304: No it’s awesome, it’s lovely you know because you’ve got things you can do. You don’t want to go somewhere where everything is just great and you’ve got to slip into maintenance mode. 
MM: 1322: where do new congregation members, when they turn up, where do they come from? Children of current members or migrants from…
FE004: 1330: They are people who are coming back
MM: Returnees! Tell me a bit more about returnees?
FE004: 1334: They are coming back That’s why I say, whether they are coming back because they got chased away from our specific church, or whether they were brought up as Christians and have drifted, but now…they’re coming back. You’ll never get somebody saying they weren’t a Christian
MM:: Is there some sort of age profile of people coming back – in their thirties or in their forties or in their
FE004: 1359: Do you mean they were going to the charismatic churches when they were young and now they’re coming back? …. It’s a white phenomenon, and I’m in a very mixed congregation. 
MM: My next question is about what your demographics are, of your congregation, so I’m interested in that
FE004: 1425: Ja, I’d say it was about 40% white, 40% coloured, and about 20% black immigrant – from DRC
MM: That’s interesting. So how’s your Lingala coming along?
FE004: 1442: Well, I did French at school, and I never thought for a moment that I would use French in ministry. I can’t speak it well enough to be useful but I can speak a few words to them and they are impressed. And I can read a liturgy which they have, which is really a Roman Catholic one, but they like it…Because there’s a little French congregation that meets once a month. They’re integrated in the congregation
MM: What would you like a preacher who came from another suburb, from another context, to know before preaching to your congregation? What would be important for them to know before preaching to them?
FE004:1530: Well, I think they are just diverse. I mean that’s something that I obviously deal with all the time and if a Synod preacher or a Local Preacher Sunday preacher, I will give them my order of service and how I like things done. And I will tell them it’s a diverse congregation: age groups and I don’t even need to mention race – they must just understand that it’s very mixed. It’s English speaking…
MM: What’s the age profile like? I come from a grey-haired church, you know
FE004: 1608: Ja you know when I first got there we gave out these little slips for people to fill in, and I got 71+, 71+, 71+. I mean there’s many of them over seventy. But there are…and I’m now doing a focus on Next Generation Leadership, I’m calling it, and I have a data-base now of 65 people. Look, our congregation is about 250 on the books, so I have 65 names that I am going to target for my next generation leadership. Which says that, you know, there actually are young people there. 
MM:: Do you have people who attend at like Easter and Christmas and who consider themselves members but you don’t see much of? 
FE004: 1705: There is a marked … I’ve only been there for two Christmases so far – this will be my third Christmas. I must actually capitalise a bit better But the people that come I don’t think are people that consider themselves members. I think they just come on Christmas. I’ve got no record of them, no idea of who they are. More white people. You suddenly see an increase in white people. I didn’t notice anything over Easter, I must be honest. It’s just Christmas that it happens. The people come out of the woodwork when there’s a funeral, and then there’s all of a sudden an “Oh but my mother was a member of your church for years” but nobody can figure out who she was or if she really was, so you can’t tell.
MM: 1804: Have you…it’s early days but I’ll ask the question anyway…people who leave your church? What sort of reasons do they give for leaving? Or people who have left
FE004: 1811: People don’t leave my church! [laughs] One man’s not coming anymore because he’s not happy with a woman minister. But that’s really only one person and I wouldn’t get too carried away – to be quite honest it’s probably not the real reason either. He probably liked being under the radar screen and didn’t like the fact that I knew his name. You get people that just want to …OK so he’s not really coming. Mike and Maria are moving to Joburg. My daughter got married and moved to FE004 suburb 5. Ann Davies got a job living with somebody in FE004 suburb 3
MM:: My daughter got married and moved to FE004 suburb 4, so we’re quits
FE004: 1930: Ja no it’s because they move, I am not aware of people that have stopped coming to church for other reasons – I can’t think offhand…and also the fortunate thing about coming in now is that those people that are there are THERE. If they were gonna leave they’d have left already. So there’s a serious commitment. 
MM: My next question was? You’ve largely answered question five. Which is do you teach people about evangelism, if so what aspects do you emphasize. Why don’t I put it like this: if you were to preach a sermon on the relationship between the people who are inside the church and those who are outside the church, what sort of line would you take?
FE004: 2042: Hmm. You know the term meta, when people say that’s very meta…I will…ja…I don’t know….um …I hold up to people that our role as a church is to be changing and transforming the world into a better place. And that as we shine in FE004 suburb 1: that people will see there is a God and that people will be drawn to this transformation and will engage with us in that transformation through a personal relationship with Jesus [2105] . Now I don’t ever use the word evangelism or conversion, but that is exactly what I am talking about and I will do that every second week if not every week. You know what I mean? So it’s a constant theme: the reason we are here is to bring about transformation and to draw others into that transforming. And I will continually pray when I take the offering or whatever that we will be a shining light in the world and will draw people to God and to Jesus. 
MM: Is there anything in John Wesley’s history that you use sometimes to illustrate, or don’t you go back there much?
FE004: 2224: I love John Wesley! He was very much a role model for me when I was a teenager and that – I like devoured his stuff. But I’m not somebody that kind of quotes a lot. On the preacher’s page I’ve got on Facebook I’ve got the quote “give me a hundred preachers…I can’t remember the quote. I went and looked for it so I could put it there. So that was my philosophy with the local preachers to some extent. Ja, no, I’m not always going back to John Wesley. I’ll occasionally preach on his four alls. And when I was in FE004 suburb 2 I preached on his stuff extensively. [2315], but I’m not in FE004 suburb 2 any more so I don’t do that.
MM:: Now this idea of being shining light and being a witness with integrity that you talk about – are some of your members more in line with that than others? What is the buy in that you feel, you say you preach about it a lot – is do you find you have to persuade people to take it on board? Or are there some people that are already living out that life of witness? And others who aren’t?
FE004: Ja…we’ve got our old people who have been in the church ever since 1954 and people there that have been in the church for ninety years
MM: What’s the significance of 1954?
FE004: 2427: Oh somebody wrote it on their contact slip. We were trying to get an idea of who had come into the church this year so that we could fill in the stats form, and some people took a bit of offence at being asked when you were a member and said “since 1954”. Those people have a different level of buy in to the church and the church’s presence in the community to those that have come in in the last five years. Look, it doesn’t really go by race, I was going to say it goes by race but it doesn’t. It goes by age profile. But generally the younger white people will be more involved than the younger coloured people, but all the older white and coloured people have this kind of old-fashioned Christianity and dedication to the cause and everything. And partly they love their church and they just want to see their church grow, and I suppose there may be a sense in which Jesus might be irrelevant to that, but I didn’t think so. I think that generally there is a genuine commitment and they would genuinely like to see good things happen. Other people are really just there for what Jesus is going to give them – they’re there because they need a job or they want work or they want to be in the community so that if they die someone will bury them. So you’re sitting there with those two distinct.…[2601] The French congregation is a totally different one – they’re very much younger people, extremely committed to Jesus and the Gospel so they would really fit with our older people – they get it and they will really make an effort to live it and mean it and really make an effort to draw people in [2617], especially among the DRC community. Does that answer your question?
MM:: I think so. I’m not looking, as I said for ultimate answers, I’m just wanting to hear you talk. …2648: I’m looking at question 7 here: Does your church take responsibility for situations in the world that are not directly related to church life? If so, what responsibility does your church have towards society in general? Or take up within society in general?
FE004: 2703: Ja, that varies very much, because different people see different things. As far as #feesmustfall I think it’s been difficult for everybody to figure out what’s right and what’s wrong. I imagine that everybody supports one side or the other side. And as I said to my congregation I have changed my mind seventeen times in one week between as to what I thought about it, and they were all nodding because I think they really struggled with this one to say what they thought. But the church was not really about to go and join any march. Or even really the anti-corruption march which was more generally supported, I don’t think. They weren’t very gung ho about that.
MM: : Did any of your members join that protest?
FE004: 2755: My husband. I don’t think anybody else did from my specific church. It’s something that we may get into next year. And I know that if I do something I will find people I’m thinking about …the church is on, just off Voortrekker Rd, running down there, and I’m fairly sure that if I said “Let’s start silent protests” which is the best thing that I have been able to think of so far, where we just go and stand on with something… I would get people and they would do it. But we don’t do it now. It’s not where we are now. In terms of general responsibilities towards society particularly our WA is awesome in terms of looking after homes for the this and homes for the that. And taking clothes here to FE004 suburb 6 hospital and whatever.  It’s an incredible outreach through the WA. 
MM:: Tabitha type ministries
FE004: 2910: Ja. The other thing is through our tithing, in terms of giving a tenth of our income out to that sort of thing. And that is like really well supported. People are happy to give
MM:: so do you give a tenth of your income towards what? Poverty relief…
FE004: 2925: Well we’ve only been able to do it from about the middle of this year. They haven’t done many yet. We gave to drug rehabilitation at FE004 suburb 7; we gave a tithe to the Methodist Mission Fund; we gave to an HIV babies’ home; and I’ve got three more things in line for the rest of the year. It’s nice and it’s exciting and people are really committed. And we’ve just had a fete, and somebody just said “Why don’t we tithe on our fete to our society in the circuit that’s struggling, so they’re willing to do that.
MM:: You’re not getting resistance? There’s not a hostile faction to that?
FE004: 3007: No
MM:: OK. And once again, is there anything in the John Wesley story that rings a bell for you personally or in your teaching? You say that you don’t use many references to Wesley at this church. 
FE004: 3031: Ja, what do you mean? In the responsibilities to society in general? Just talking about money I was just thinking about his attitude to money…earn, save, what else…save doesn’t mean save…give. Ja..I don’t…I mean John Wesley was obviously very much an egalitarian 
MM:: I’m just asking because I’m going to be doing an analysis –so I’m getting all the help I can. Of Wesley, as part of my studies, so I’m getting all the help I can en route.
FE004: 3127: I mean it’s easy to see what he’s done. I mean the way he dealt with Lady Huntingdon or whatever her name was, and the next minute he’s dealing with the guy who can’t afford to give his penny an month. That’s kind of amazing
MM:: OK. Now, question eight. 
FE004: 3206: Important factors involved in conversion…[laughs]
MM:: I think you’ve outlined…let me summarise what I remember of what you’ve said. You’ve said you prefer not to use the word conversion, you see metanoia as a rethinking of the ultimate issues of life and life direction. And you talked about a personal relationship with Jesus, you mentioned that as well, but you said you don’t use the words evangelism or conversion because of their connotations. 
FE004: 3242: I haven’t  ever really thought about it before, I haven’t made the decision that I’m not using these words – I just realise that I don’t because I don’t think they come in
MM:: I’m happy for us to be just spit-balling here
FE004: 3252: So it’s not a decision that I made that I sat down and thought about but it’s just the way that it’s evolved that I don’t. And in terms of what I consider also conversion into a transformed lifestyle, living in obedience to God.[3303] 
MM:: Is there some new information that needs to be internalised for this to be meaningful?  This new transformed relationship or whatever…is there a sub-minimum of information? What’s 
FE004: 3332: You mean we’re saved by our beliefs type of thing? Orthodoxy and orthopraxy and …
MM:: I see that I am speaking to a theologian here
FE004: 3345: Do you have to believe something particular? I did preach a sermon on this – what did I preach? …I preached something about what it means to be a member of the church. And I did say that there was a set of beliefs that we would generally tend to adhere to. Which at that point I think I sort of put down as the Nicene Creed, [3358] saying that by or large you have to be OK with this. If you’re not OK with this by and large then you’re not going to fit in and you’re not in the right place. So yeah I would say that. But I don’t say to people “Do you understand and believe every element of the Nicene Creed?” before I’m willing to baptise their babies. You know, that sort of thing.  And I really encourage people to do the Alpha Course, 
MM:: OK…why?
FE004:: because it gives a very good grounding on Christian belief. Whether one could turn that into a creed I don’t know, but you know it is almost a post modern version of the creed, is the Alpha Course [FE004::3449]. 
MM:: That’s an interesting way of looking at it
FE004: 3457: It is, isn’t it. There you go, you can take that one! You can have it!
MM:: Hmmm! That’s going to appear with a suitable quotation! With a number – you get a number…And know we’re looking at this rethinking or transformational process…what  changes happen in people in this process? 
FE004: 3531: It’s going to depend on what they were before. The drunk will no longer drink and the druggie will do his very best not to drug and the …
MM:: and the self-righteous snob will suddenly be open to all people!
FE004: 3557: That’s it, ja. Perfect love, I suppose
MM:: I’m not supposed to feed you lines!
FE004: 3604: Ja, but you know what I’m saying, that’s why. 
MM:. OK. Mo-oving on to question nine, on the home strait, if you think of all the languages and cultures there are, all the different types of people there are, which of these people is you church evangelising, being salt and light amongst? Take away evangelising and replace it with a phrase you can use. Which people would you like them to engage with in the FE004 suburb 1: area? Of all the languages and cultures there are in Cape Town, I already see that you’ve got DRC people? You’ve got – is it an English speaking community? Do you preach in English?
FE004: 3716: I preach in English, though many of them speak Afrikaans. And the French people speak French. OK, I just have to give you this now. But you should read that, instead of evangelising, read colonising [3728]. 
MM:: OK? All right? Tell me more?
FE004: 3732. No you can work it out from there [laughing]. 
MM:. So are you suggesting that evangelism is potentially an exercise of power and domination?
FE004: 3745: Yes. Ja. The way that we’re phrasing it and it is – we want to go there and we want to colonise, and we want to… So your salt & light is a much better one to say that Where can we by our influence …partly doing the MSM thing; you know the MSM stuff is like twenty years old and I’m saying “Come, guys, we need to actually bring it up to where we are now.” So I’ve been thinking about it. OK, I’ll talk target market – who do we want to colonise? We just want to be amongst the people we are amongst. I do appreciate the fact that we could sort of target the homeless, and you know Voortrekker Rd has got these stalls with the immigrant stall-holders and whatever. And I’ve walked among them and I’ve thought, “O Gosh these people need Jesus” and then I’ve thought “You know what? These people are really happy the way they are”. And for me to go and stand there and start hammering them and saying “You need Jesus” is just to miss the point. I haven’t really figured out, but I think I will figure out in the next couple of years the way to do it.
MM:: A way to relate to people who are in between the churches
FE004: 3913 Ja…. The way to understand what their need really is. To understand what God can do for them and what they can do for God. And to do it in a way that doesn’t feel like colonising, and coming over all colonial on them. 
MM:: No, I hear you. That’s a very helpful phrase..Ja…I think you’ve answered quite a lot already…anything in John Wesley’s thought that’s relevant to evangelism of your local church to, in, from, through, by your local church in this context? Anything that transposes from the 1700’s to the 2100’s?
FE004: 4008: Ja, no Wesley can. I just really haven’t used him much or even thought about him since I left FE004 suburb 2. As I say I used him extensively then. I probably scratched the itch inside of myself, you know what I mean? I just moved on from there. The people aren’t particularly going to be impressed if I use John Wesley or I don’t use John Wesley, so there’s no particular value for that. 
MM:: Now given your aversion to issues of domination and control, and evangelism as an extension of that, what do you think outsiders in your community would find the most persuasive if they heard or experienced it through your church members. What would like stop them in their tracks and think “Whoah! This is a good idea!”? And conversely, what do they find most offensive? Or would they find most offensive, or do they find most offensive? If you were to hazard a guess?
FE004: 4119: Well, I’m sorry, my brain will not sit along your normal paths. 
MM:: That’s fine! I’m happy
FE004: 4131: OK, when we had a fete, and I’m not a fete person. I come from Joburg where we teach “You tithe, and we don’t do fundraising”. And you come to Cape Town and people just love fund raising. If you do it and you don’t make money it doesn’t matter! Fundraising is fun and we want to do it. And so people have been saying for years that they wanted to do a fete and so I said, OK, that’s fine. Do a fete. I’ll do zero work for it, other than a bit of advertising and that
MM:: And you graced it with your presence in your dog-collar, no doubt.
FE004: 4209: Not in my dog collar. And the people from the community rolled in and they rolled through and they chatted about the church to people and they said ja, well maybe they’ll actually consider coming to the church, and people who had drifted away from the church came back and were even involved in making boerewors rolls and whatever, and I believe they went back to a church they sometimes go to and said what an awesome fete they had at FE004 suburb 1: and they were in church from the next Sunday. OK so now put that in there! The Fete was the….I expected good fellowship and all of that, and we raised a lot of money so that was cool, but it was an evangelistic outreach.  Ok now here’s another one that also totally surprised me. I get these young white people who want to baptise their children. “No, I’m not willing to come to church” – “Are you going to bring the child to church?” – “Ooh, no, he cries much to much; you mustn’t want us to come to church” I was furious after that one – they came after the church service to talk to me because they didn’t want to come to church.  So I went away and I thought about this and I thought” now what am I going to do? I can’t just nail the thing shut and say I’m not going to do anything”.  So I got my secretary to phone – there’s a handful of people hovering around this baptism thing, and I said “OK we’re going to do a course,” and I did the Alpha Parenting Children Course [4344]. And I said, “You come to that for five weeks and we will baptise your baby, and we will only give you the baptism forms if you come to church” – and they had to come to church at least once to get the forms, and once to get the baby baptised. And you know how effective that was! 
MM:: Really? People weren’t resentful?
FE004: 4407: They weren’t resentful. They came, they came every week, they enjoyed the course – I didn’t lead it, somebody else led it. They built up a rapport with the person who led it; I popped in and out; I was there a little bit so I got to meet them It was the most hands off baptism I ever had because I had no idea who I was actually baptising on the day, so they had to shove and say this one and that one. I didn’t know, I just let it be. But that kind of relaxed…on the one hand you come to this course and it’s a really good course, so I didn’t feel bad about that, and they did it, and well they came to the fete and they said “Oh hi! You baptised this one last week”. So that really surprised me. So that worked. And that of course is very Fresh Expressions and they get people around some other interest or whatever. The Alpha Children’s course is of course not really very strongly Christian, but the principles are Christian and the leader was a Christian and it happened at church.
MM: That’s very interesting, yes
FE004: 4512: So now I’m working on my confirmation class to say well the parents must do Parenting Teenagers, but not when they are sixteen, when the kids are thirteen and fourteen. Trying to work that in, you know. There are different ways of doing things. So those work, yes.
MM:: OK. And you know I asked about the negative things. What do people find offensive? In your experience from feedback you have got about how people were offended Or don’t people even bother? 
FE004: 4546: I can’t really say that we’ve done anything that’s … I can’t think of anything at the moment, I don’t know if that’s…if you give be another prod something might spark in a different direction. We haven’t had any Evangelism Drives or tried to anything offensive really. 
MM:: What do you think made John Wesley so successful in his connection with people who lost contact with Christianity?
FE004: 4634: He was real. He didn’t just dress up in a fancy robe and stand in the front like a decoration. You know, he actually was real. He moved with the people; he argued with the people, discussed with the people. 
MM:: He got thrown off his horse and got his feet wet in the snow
FE004: 4656: Ja. It was different times hey. I don’t think the current #feesmustfall guys who are getting themselves very unpopular think that we can say they are modelled on John Wesley; So in other words, getting thrown off your horse is not an indication of doing the right thing. Though it might be tempting to say that. 
MM:: OK, last question. Is there any budget allocation for people and concerns, particularly people who are particularly not part of your community? And what would the reasons for that budget allocation be or no budget allocation? When you sit down and make a budget do you..
FE004: 4802: Our budget has been very simple for the last little while because we have only just had enough money to get by and for next year,  I think without too much faith, we are saying that we will actually put budget for ministry, rather than just budget for paying the lights and the assessment. God has been exceptionally good. So yes, it’s exactly where our budget allocation is. It’s difficult to necessarily say whether it’s for inside or outside, but our Sunday School has currently maybe thirty people, thirty children – now I don’t know, it depends on how rich your church is, but we’re allocating R2000 a year for our Sunday School! This is more than we’ve ever done before, OK!
MM:: Who are the children who attend your Sunday School? Children of parents in the church, neighbour kids…what sort of mix do you get?
FE004: 4857: Its mostly children of the parents in the church; one of the French ladies runs a little crèche in her home, so she brings her crèche. But yes by and large I think that yes, nobody I think comes by themselves A few kids are dropped off, which used to be a big thing and then stopped being a big thing, and now seems to be coming again… So yes, we’ve got R2000 for the kids, we’ve got R2000 for the youth which is about ten people at the moment. Again, the point is to grow the youth, so it is an outreach.  R2000 for our seniors, which is very strong, and intended to get stronger. Again it’s outreach, even though you’re building on what’s there, the purpose is to reach out, and the other R2000 is for our courses, which is the Alpha Course. Possibly less reaching out, but possibly not – we’ll see how it goes.
MM:: So what percentage of your overall budget goes on …these things.
FE004: 5003: O, very, very low because remember we’ve just gone from nothing to being able to give R8000 across a year. This is across a year, R8000. 
MM:: Well, it’s better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick
FE004: 5015: Oh, ja.  I mean our young people are ecstatic! They’re suddenly thinking, you know, they’ve got R2000,, what can they spend it on?  Which is great.
MM:: OK, here’s a fantasy situation: someone gives you R10,000 to spend on EVANGELISM. How would you spend it? 
FE004: 5033: On evangelism?
MM:: Yes, they say on evangelism. 
FE004: 5046: Possibly on newspaper adverts? …It doesn’t cost much but a totally immeasurable thing is facebook advertising. I easily raised our facebook likes to 100 by a little bit of advertising here in the FE004 suburb 1: area on facebook. There’s no way of telling whether those people actually come to church or whether they come in and go – there’s no way of knowing
MM:: Yes, there’s a whole new range of pastoral concern
FE004: 5117: I’ve put a lot of effort into webpages and Facebook but it’s very, very hard to measure the value of it. Every now and again somebody will say, O wow!, you know. And of course you see you put photos up and then it’s photos of the fete and the families of the people in the photos are looking at the photos, you can’t measure! But you believe that that’s somehow reaching out. But I wouldn’t waste the R10,000 on that because Facebook advertising is very cheap. I don’t even charge the church I just pay it myself. 
MM:: So would you hire a tent and an evangelist?
FE004: 5201: There’s no point in making converts that you can’t look after. Have you ever looked at Natural Church development?
MM:: Yes! Christian Schwartz! My hero!
FE004: 5211: OK, well there you go. You build your church along the lines of Natural Church Development and people will come in because of the church [5219]. And I think that is the way to do it. It’s NOT to go out and do a crusade and …Maybe if I was the sort of preacher who could draw people, but then they can just come on a Sunday – I don’t need to do the crusade thing. OK I think you would understand why I wouldn’t do it, because even if you do get the thousand converts, what am I going to do with the thousand converts? I don’t believe a church can sustain a growth of more than 10% in a year. Which is frustrating, but if you can maintain 10% a year you church will grow. And it will grow. 
MM:: It’s called compound interest
FE004: 5304: Ja. So I would use the R10,000 on a more steady thing – advertising Alpha Courses and, ja…I don’t know! You’d have to give me some time to think about it
MM:: No,, I like to ask people the question because it puts you into the world of fantasy and it 
FE004: 5334: Well form the fete I’ve got more than R10,000. I know I want to use the money on other things, but…
MM:: Ja, but already some people are saying why don’t we give 10% of it to what? Some charity.
FE004: 5347: To one of the other churches in our circuit
MM:: Well, that’s my story, and those are the questions I wanted to ask. Thank you very much for answering them.
7212 words  
2016-02-17 ME005
Age
ME005 suburb 1 Methodist & ME005 suburb 2 Methodist
MM: 00.00 Okay. I’m speaking with ME005 on the 17th of February 2016 in the Vida e Coffee shop on X Rd. ME005, thank you very much for agreeing to talk with me. I am conducting research into evangelism in the Methodist Churches of Cape Town, and in your amp as a Methodist minister I would just like to ask you a few questions. Please feel free to talk at large about the questions. …Tell me about any evangelism that happens in your local church, your last local church, and any evangelism that involved your members
ME005: 0125 I had two [churches]. I had ME005 suburb 1 and ME005 suburb 2, which were profoundly different.
MM 0139. Swing freely between the two of them
ME005: 0146. But also I need to clarify because evangelism in the two is very different…At ME005 suburb 1 evangelism was pretty much non-existent. The only attempt they  had would have been to run Alpha Courses which they believed to have been evangelism although they were usually addressed not only at the congregation but also at the same participants who had attended several times before….the same people would go again and again, and I am only aware of one person who came to conversion through the ME005 suburb 1 Alpha thing. The people would often talk about how it deepened their faith and knowledge, that’s why they had to keep repeating it. Which left me doubtful. 0250. And that was pretty much the limit. Any talk about evangelism would be very quickly shut down by confidence that it was something they shouldn’t be doing. Whereas at ME005 suburb 2 there would be at least once a year there would be a very full evangelistic campaign 0328 …usually associated with Easter, that involved street preaching, kind of moving around – it was an informal settlement, so they’d move around the informal settlement, sing, stopping in different places, different people preaching. The nature of the preaching was always a call to conversion. People would then accompany the group back to church where 0352 they would make a public commitment and testify to the change in their life. But also there would be more informal evangelism as well, where people are speaking to others; but also regularly an opportunity, a type of altar call where people would go forward and commit themselves. The altar call type thing was always accompanied by testimony as to how they saw their lives changing because they have now embraced Jesus. 
MM: 0432. My next question is asking for some stories of people who have experienced conversion
ME005:0457.  So…ME005 suburb 1…there’s a profound story told by a woman 0500. Who came to conversion very strangely with no intervention at all.. She had a dream, and in the dream – at a fairly rough point in her life – somebody who she would describe as God came and told her “Read the Gospel of John”, it was just for her. She read the Gospel of John and although she did have a Christian background 0530 she was pretty nominal. She read through the whole Gospel and was convinced that everything that was wrong in her life was because she didn’t have a living relationship with God, and that this would be mediated through Christ. And arrived one day at the church office to explain this and say “Can you just show me how to become a Christian and a Christ-follower?” So that was a very interesting one because 0559. There was no attempt to convert her. And, ja, she was profoundly changed through the experience. At ME005 suburb 2 people would really testify that their lives were usually 0620 kind of mired in sin would be the best way to say it. There would be long accounts of drinking and carousing and all sorts of things that they had done wrong. They then heard the message preached to them and come to realise that Christ was the only way – and usually there would be the only way to get to heaven 0643. They would then decide to become Christians and would speak of the change. It was a very formal discipling context, so once you’d done that you’d be allocated to a small group or class meeting, which would require you to confess your sins every week.  Usually a big emphasis on sin. 0707. And dealing with sin. And so people would have very meaningful changes, basically in lifestyle, that was then almost legislated by the class meeting, to make sure you didn’t sip back in very legalistic terms 0728. 
MM:0730:. Now in say the last five years that you were at ME005 suburb 1 and ME005 suburb 2 would you estimate that your congregation has grown, staid more or less the same, or shrunk in numbers?
ME005: 0747:. OK, ME005 suburb 1 shrank. It is naturally atrophying. It is an elderly congregation and most losses are to death. Simply, the congregation is dying, physically. ME005 suburb 2 on the other hand, and that point and still today, I think, is growing at quite a steady state 0815. And when I say “growing” that would be more to do with people being converted than necessarily people transferring in from other churches. They would grow at a rate of about 20 conversions a year. 
MM 0839:. That interests me – where the new congregation members would come from. ME005 suburb 1 and ME005 suburb 2 are two very different places. Are they children of members? Methodists? Other denominations? Through specialist outreach ministries like your Alpha? From other language and culture groups? Anywhere else? Any interesting source of new members?
ME005 0903:. I think new members in ME005 suburb 2, it is a very dynamic community, an informal settlement with people moving in specifically from rural Eastern Cape continually. And it’s amongst those people that there seems to be the most growth. Whether they had church backgrounds or not is uncertain; they might have been Methodists by tradition somewhere, but they were just generally community members. But it’s a growing community, a much more mixed, no, a younger community, 0946. The majority of elderly people return to the Eastern Cape, so there are many people of working age, although there are large numbers of unemployment.0956. Very few children or youth that I ever saw coming to conversion there. Whereas ME005 suburb 1 is old and gentrifying and dying. One lady had a dream and arrived. Any attempt to evangelise would not come out of any obedience to a call of Christ but rather out of an attempt to save the institution. 1033. To ensure there were members to prolong its life. That would have been the attitude of ME005 suburb 1. 
MM 1047:. Thank you for your candour! The other thing is, what reasons would people give for leaving your church, other than “I am dead”?
ME005 1052:. No, ME005 suburb 1 didn’t have huge numbers that left in the five year period I was there. 
MM 1109:. You know, I ask the question because some churches are very much railroad churches with people coming and going
ME005 1113:. They were a much more settled congregation. I suppose that apart from dying they would be relocating to another area, usually elderly people moving into assisted living or old age homes that were too far for them to travel. 1130. So they would go to church nearer the place, the new home
MM 1140:. And still on membership – do you have some people who consider themselves members but very seldom attend – you know, you maybe see them once a year at Christmas, or maybe twice a year at Christmas and Easter? 1153. 
ME005 1157:.ME005 suburb 1 would have those who attend at Christmas, probably not at Easter, and a large number that might not even attend at Christmas, but believed that they are members of the church, but they would only appear when there was a baptism or a funeral required. 1213. 
MM 1213:.So what motivates people to keep membership if they are not motivated by using the services?
ME005 1225:. The means of grace, Martin. I suppose what motivates them is an insurance policy type attitude that there will be somebody to bury me when I die. Kind of cultural. Whereas ME005 suburb 2, on the other hand membership was much more active. If people lapsed and left at ME005 suburb 2 they went very often to other Methodist Churches, because of leadership squabbles or political reasons. 1306. 
MM 1316:. So can you please (question four) please describe your congregations in terms of languages, culture-mix and socio-economic factors?
ME005 1323:. ME005 suburb 1 would be upper middle class, conservative, white, English speaking. It’s now beginning to kind of incorporate some traditionally coloured people, and a few kind of foreign African people from other parts of Africa. But predominantly it’s white, and the people live in that area. Whereas ME005 suburb 2 is – all but one member – a Xhosa congregation. 
MM 1412:.So what is that other member?
ME005 1414:. He officially  is – now let me get this right – Malawian, Chechewa. Not really very welcome but very faithful. In economic terms there is large unemployment, and educationally very few people made matric in ME005 suburb 2, a large number of illiterate people still whereas everyone at ME005 suburb 1 would have completed high school at least, if not having tertiary education. 
MM 1502:. What would you say to a preacher preaching at ME005 suburb 1 or ME005 suburb 2 for the first time? What would you want to tell them before they preached there?
ME005 1506:.I suppose at ME005 suburb 1 you’d tell them not to be intimidated by people who were going to tell you how it should happen. And I suppose the other one is that at the end of one hour, they should end by the end of one hour otherwise the congregation just walks. They just get up and walk out. They don’t even kind of embarrassedly shuffle and look at their watches, they just … 1549. ME005 suburb 2? I suppose the only think you’d need to tell someone going to ME005 suburb 2 is that you can do anything you like so long as you follow the order of morning prayer. When you’ve finished that you can preach for a week, have group work, or you can do drama, but you must follow the liturgy. 1611. You’ve got to have siyakudumisa: the te deum must happen. 
MM 1624:. OK, thank you. Moving on to question 5. Did you teach people about evangelism; and if so, what aspects did you emphasize?
ME005 1640:. Hmmm. I’m confident that I did teach them about evangelism; whether the teaching was effective is doubtful because the fruit was not seen. However, I would clearly emphasize that evangelism should come out of love for our neighbours, and wanting them to experience what we’ve experienced and come to know. I would also quite clearly be saying that Jesus basically asks two things of us: firstly, to follow him; secondly, to make disciples. 1708.  So it was an imperative that we should evangelise, and that it should in fact be part of our daily lifestyle, rather than a kind of once-off event. So we should constantly be engaged in evangelistic activity. If that makes sense?
MM 1738: Now if you personally were to preach a sermon in which you had the opportunity to try and persuade people to become Christians, what would you say? 
ME005 1754: I would say, standardly very often I would tell people my story, how I came to faith and what happened to me, and the benefits of that. And really I would emphasize a personal relationship with God the Father, that that is something that is available to us, and emphasize that it is available to everyone, to enter into that relationship….I would also emphasize that conversion is a growth process. 1858. And that one can enter at any point into a relationship knowing that it will grow even so even if you think you’re a Christian there can be kind of further conversion happening and the relationship deepening, and maybe unlike most of my colleagues [wry grimace] I will on occasions have altar call type of things to say “If you want to deepen this relationship here’s an opportunity to make it real for yourself”
MM 1930:. Is that frowned upon by your colleagues?
ME005 1933: To an extent it’s frowned upon, or seen as being, I’d hate to say irrelevant. It might be seen as irrelevant or very often out a fear that…the Methodist Church of Southern Africa works on a market share system these days,  1956. It might be emulating the competition and maybe not what we do. But I think it is relevant and has a place
MM 2008:. Thank you. And do you have some stories from John Wesley’s life that you use to illustrate your teaching on evangelism?
ME005 2016:. [laughs] John Wesley’s life! Apart from the Aldersgate experience, which I would definitely use every year, around Aldersgate Sunday, when I’d talk about the strangely warmed heart, what happened in that. I would sometimes talk about his unpopularity, 2040.  When evangelizing, and people attempting to disrupt meetings, to discourage people from following. But, ja, probably Aldersgate would be the main one. And whether that was conversion we can go and debate that at another place. If there are multiple parts to conversion then that it was somewhere in there as part of his process
MM 2121:. Now question six….are some members of your regularly attending congregation more involved in evangelism than others? If so, drawing on your pastoral experience, could you explain the reasons?
ME005 2136 :.Yes there are. At ME005 suburb 1 there are some that are more involved. Somebody runs a feeding scheme, who believes he is now evangelising because he has a little sermon all the time. There are others who are more involved or speak more about it being necessary – they might not be involved. And that really came out of the tradition of the church that they were in where it was emphasized that we had to be evangelizing. 2207. And very often they would use terms at ME005 suburb 1 like “snatching people from the gates of hell”, although I never saw anyone snatch. ME005 suburb 2, definitely the members of the uniformed organizations were more committed to evangelism, just the Young Men’s Guild, the YMG, and the women’s Manyano. The YMG particular are very much…
MM 2237: So the Local Preachers aren’t considered a “uniformed movement”?
ME005 2239:. Yes, they are considered uniformed, but I very seldom saw Local Preachers engaging in evangelism. They very seldom seem to engage in evangelism except on Good Friday, everybody would need to have some kind of a call. But the reason for it was that that was just the culture of what those organizations do. They do it in very specific ways, so they were following organizational culture rather than some imperative from the gospel. 2327. 
MM 2342:. You talk about an “imperative from the gospel”…what do you think does persuade Christians to be actively involved in evangelism?
ME005 2345:. I would think the first part is a personal experience definitely persuades you. Once you’ve experienced conversion or a change in your life like that, then you want to do it. Others sometimes out of obedience, that you were commanded to do it. I would think that those would be the major persuaders about why people would engage in evangelism. 2418. 
MM 2426:. And you did talk about a cultural imperative, an institutional…. 
ME005 2430:. Yes, the institutional thing. And I suppose most often when talking about evangelism Methodists would start citing that they had to do it to save the church, the church was dying, and hence it may be partly why it’s so ineffective. 2444. The effective ones are the ones that come out of personal experience. 
MM 2453:.Question seven is looking at the sermon at the soup kitchen: does your church take responsibility for situations in the world that are not directly related to your church life? If so, what responsibility does your church have towards society in general?
ME005 2508:. Yes, ME005 suburb 1 had soup kitchens – their response to hungry people in the area. They also had vegetable gardens on the pavement as a response…with notices that say you can come and pick these if you need it. Which is very nice. But that would be the outside limit. And very often I think there that those factors were also driven by some need to deal with people who are outside the church, so that they didn’t become a nuisance in the community. So it’s not necessarily out of love or concern for them, but that we can’t have vagrants wandering around our suburb. 2601. The ME005 suburb 2 lot would probably be more directly involved in things outside the church in times of crisis. At times there have been big fires and at that point they would mobilize really well to care and look after people; but as a kind of regular steady thing, there wouldn’t be. And then, ja,  2631. With that it would be any social issue. So if they were to be aware that there was a man beating his wife in an area they would kind of very formally take action – go and beat pots outside the house whenever she screamed, or call the police. But it was always a direct response to a crisis, whereas ME005 suburb 1 was a more sustained thing but limited then to feeding people. 2700. 
MM 2708:.Can you think of any ways in which John Wesley’s thinking influences what you are trying to teach your congregation with regard to this issue? 
ME005 2716 :.[laughs] John Wesley and social issues? I suppose there was “no holiness without social holiness” – I might be misquoting there. But that would really be the main Wesleyan influence. To say that if conversion is going to really mean something it’s gotta be changing society around us
MM2750:   Now I think you covered a lot of this in question eight, but is there anything more you want to say about what are the most important factors involved in conversion? 
ME005 2805 :   OK, the most important factors in conversion? There needs to be an acknowledgement of sin, a desire to change, repent from it, and an experience of God’s forgiveness. To be truly converted there has to be an experiential part. 2827. That says “I feel and know that something has changed.” 
MM2840 :   Does conversion make any difference to people? If so, what changes when people are converted?
ME005 2843 :   It makes a huge difference in my opinion! What changes should be their relationship to God and their relationship to themselves – of course part of it is coming to understand yourself differently 2855. And then it has to be worked out in lifestyle. It has to be some process of sanctification not just justification that’s visible. And usually I’ll use those as a way to judge whether there has been true conversion. 
MM2918 :   Do you think that some people are more converted than others?
ME005 2926 :   Would that not be a good question to ask
MM297 :   please explain?
ME005 2928 :   Yes, I think I would. Going back to the thing that conversion is a process? Some people encounter Christ and are totally transformed in one experience. Others over a period of time different aspects of their life they become aware of a need to change. 2951. So sanctification is a growth process and may involve little conversions along the way. So ultimate conversion would be when we arrive in glory, whatever that’s going to mean.[inaudible fragment]
MM3016 :   So how do you think your understanding relates to Wesley’s theological emphases?
ME005 3020 :   Ah. What are his emphases? All people need to be saved, all people must be saved…those ones? 
MM3030 :   I don’t know – I’m just asking the questions
ME005 3032 :   I would say my understanding would be that the emphases would be on that. So the first one that all people need salvation. And so it’s “alls” – all people need it, all people can know and experience salvation, eventually reach a state of Christian perfection. So I think that it’s really totally that, and it’s born out of the Wesleyan thing. And the other emphases? There’s the social holiness one, coming from the same root I think
MM 3105:   OK, question nine. When you think of all the languages and cultures there are, and all the types of people and needs, which of these people is your church evangelising and which people or types of people would you like to evangelise? 3125. Or would you have liked to have evangelised?
ME005 3134 :   I suppose … ME005 suburb 1 would want to evangelise people who looked exactly like them. I think ME005 suburb 2 as well. So it’s kind of like seeks like. ME005 suburb 1 would sometimes want to evangelise people who were in need. 3214. But then not necessarily to incorporate them into membership. So they were evangelising them for somebody else.  Whereas the imperative really should be that if we believe God loves everyone, that we evangelise everyone. Particularly in the local community, because 3235. If a church is situated in a community it’s mission needs firstly be there. “You’ll be my witnesses in Jerusalem” – we need to start where we are. Which sadly is very often not the Methodist way. 3252. The Methodists do like to engage in mission by sending a cheque to somebody far away to save people they will never see.   
MM 3321 :   Do some people who regularly attend church need to be evangelised or not? Why or why not?
ME005 3323:   I think everyone who regularly attends church needs to be evangelised, for a number of reasons. Some people have had an experience of Christ that has grown cold, and they have become more involved in ritual and tradition than in relationship. So they need to hear that call pretty regularly. Ja, so inside of the church and outside of the church people do need to be evangelised. The harder ones to evangelise are inside the church. There is a sense where they have almost been deceived into thinking that they do not need 3408. 
MM3416 :   If you take the greater Cape Town area, ME005 suburb 2 where you are,  to Somerset West, Mitchell’s Plain to Malmesbury, Simon’s Town to Stellenbosch, in what places do your people evangelise? And are there places where they would definitely not – places that they consider forbidden, or off their radar?
ME005 3438:   Hmm. I think ME005 suburb 1 people would consider predominantly Muslim areas to be not evangelisable, or worthy of evangelism. I’m not sure whether it’s respect of another faith or disrespect. But they wouldn’t want to go out and evangelise in a predominantly Muslim area. I think ME005 suburb 2 would never consider evangelising in traditionally white areas, 3513, for a feeling almost that they are inferior and have nothing to say in those communities.  Whereas ME005 suburb 1 would quite happily and very paternalistically go and tell anyone anywhere – if you could get them to go.  
MM 3538:  Question ten, what sort of evangelism do you consider that outsiders find most persuasive? 
ME005 3550:   Relationship. Relational evangelism where a relationship is developed with a person that allows you the right to speak into their lives from a Christian perspective. With the individual, one on one – but out of relationship, not just running over with the four spiritual laws 3613, to a total stranger, I don’t think that really works. It just makes people hostile. So it needs to be a long term commitment to individual people that you develop a relationship and the right to speak into their lives – I think that’s the one that is most persuasive. Some of the others are not least persuasive, but in fact the total opposite of that
MM 3640:  Yes, that is my next question: What do people find the most offensive about evangelism?  
ME005 3650 :   Most offensive would be kind of like shotgun evangelism, just picking on somebody and telling them the gospel; and evangelism based on fear – the fear of hell, the “If you were hit by a truck tonight on the way home from this meeting”, that kind of thing 3704 is most offensive
MM3708 :   Are you referring to EE3?
ME005 3713:   I was a great EE3 trainee at one stage, yes,… Evangelism Explosion Three, not very good – also because it does not have the relationship base. Things like I can remember the big rallies of times past – Billy Graham style rallies had a high pressured evangelism, very often based on fear. They might have led to temporary behaviour changes, but not to lasting commitment
MM :   What do you think made John Wesley so successful as an evangelist?
ME005 3757 :  The fact that he went to where the people were. And contextualized his message and basically took it outside of church. I tend to have the idea that when we read the sermons it’s not what he was preaching 3813 but that he had a way that connected with people where the need was. And he was offering them in a very stratified society the opportunity to feel that they were known and accepted by God 3831.  
MM 3850:   OK, Question eleven. Was there or was there not any budget allocation for outsiders and outsiders’ concerns?. Please explain the reasons? 
ME005  3856:   ME005 suburb 1, who believed they were very poor, had no budget allocation for local evangelism, for addressing those kind of concerns. 3910. Their budget would more be to kind of send it to mission organizations far away – and so they did budget for that, to support missionaries they had or projects around. But to get them to budget for kind of local evangelism done by themselves was not so good, and there was a budget for concerns of people, so there’s a poor fund that was primarily for members of that society. Whereas ME005 suburb 2 there would be a budget for big events – like the conventions or Easter. And so although it wasn’t directly perhaps related to evangelism money was set aside to host those events or to make sure everybody ate 4003 but there was no budgeting so they would be the total opposite. So it would be locally done stuff, never send money to a missionary anywhere. And the reasons? ME005 suburb 1 it would always be that there was no money, so no matter how much you explained this was what Jesus required, “our needs come first”. And ME005 suburb 2 where there really was no money, 4030, they were really committed to the model they had and believed that it was really addressing the need.
MM4042 :   So if some anonymous donor were to donate R10,000 with the express request that it be used for evangelism. How would you have like to have spent it at ME005 suburb 1, and how would you have liked to have spent it, or liked it to have been spent at ME005 suburb 2? 4102
ME005: 4105   So ME005 suburb 1 I would think…hmmm…R10,000? That basically somehow we got people to go out and start talking to people. So maybe part of it could be used on some kind of a course to say “basically we’re going to give you some training on how to do this relational evangelism.” Because they like things to prop them up, perhaps they could have had a Bible they could give to the person eventually, so it would be very much equipping them to do it. Although they are probably fully equipped to doing it anyway. They would have been tempted to take the money and employ to go and evangelise. That’s what they would have done: they would have said “R10,000? Yep, 4159, we can send an evangelist to the Meadowridge shopping centre twice a week”. You know something like that. ME005 suburb 2, I would have liked to see it really being used to provide follow-up stuff for people who came, so they could actually have some Bible studies they could follow, and establishing in the class system more intentional ways of dealing with things like that. 4227. Such as teaching people to read Scripture for themselves if they couldn’t read. But ja, what they would have done with it? I think they would have taken the R10,000 and said “We must get a couple of sheep and then we’ll have a big thing on Saturday, we’ll all eat sheep when we come back from singing and preaching all over”. 
MM 4300 :   How many  sheep can you get for R10,000?
ME005 4302:   About five. Maybe six.  They could have had a lot of revivals
MM 4313:   Well, that’s my story. Thank you
4873 words

2016-03-15 & 2017-03-02 Field Notes: Interview Refusal: ME010
Church ….
ME010 is an extreme example of a phenomenon I came across frequently. Although I had a letter from the bishop encouraging the ministers to co-operate, many of them were strongly averse to being interviewed. This narrative is based on field notes I took on the two occasions I spoke with him. The context each time was in a ministers’ staff meeting, where I had been given permission by the superintendent minister to canvass for interviews.
1.	Tough gig trying to persuade ME010 to give me a date for answering my research questions! He literally said, “I am going to play hard to get. No. You will have to persuade me.”
2.	I knew he was going to cause trouble because of his frown and steepled fingers. FE006 was very responsive during my presentation and had agreed readily to give me an interview. And she in fact joined in trying to persuade ME010. “You must have such interesting insights; I know that I would love to hear your experiences,” she said, trying to cajole him into agreeing. ME010 glared at her, and showed non-verbal signals of resistance when the superintendent minister tried to coax him into agreeing – sitting back, folding his arms, and switching his gaze to an empty corner of the room.
3.	ME010 switched his point of attack/defence: “You haven’t mentioned anything about the sacraments,” he objected. “You talk about liturgy but there is nothing here about the sacraments – I’d fail you on that alone.” This hostility was a little puzzling, especially since I had a whole section on liturgical/sacramental issues demarcated in my research plan which I had shared with the ministers. 
4.	But I tried to rally and rescue the situation by saying, “No, I won’t fail if you draw attention to something like that that I have missed. It’s one of the many things that I can learn from you.” At this point I must admit that I felt offended, and was actually using the manipulative tactic of flattery rather than sincerely expecting to learn from him. But on reflection, it was true. I was expecting to be confronted with issues that I had not planned for to emerge from the interview process.
5.	“Flattery will get you nowhere,” said ME010 perceptively. “Anyway, why should I give you an interview? What’s in it for me?” I found this a rather surprising tactic.
6.	“Nothing,” I said. “But there is a lot in it for me. And you get an opportunity to instruct a know-it-all in some key areas – like you just have.” I decided at this point not to try and use the bishop’s letter of permission and exhortation – ME010 already had it in his possession, had read it, and was manifestly unconvinced that the study had sufficient potential benefits for the church to justify his participation
7.	He then gave me some very interesting data that I can’t repeat because it would reveal his identity – related to his ministry, and establishing that he had experience in crucial areas of life and death, which by implication, I did not. 
8.	I said various related things showing that I was in fact au fait with his situation. He seemed displeased and I suspect that most people would never be able to make the connections that I could. This was possibly a tactical mis-step on my part. However, since he had invited me to persuade him, I went on to say “I really need to interview somebody like you who is at home in both worlds – the church and the world between the churches. Please, please, please give me an interview.” I have never before in my life said “please, please, please” three times like that to anybody!
9.	“Okay”, he said, obviously grudgingly, and we arranged to meet in a nearby coffee shop at 10 o’clock on the 8th of April. 
10.	The 8th of April came and he did not keep his ten o’clock appointment: he did not contact me – he simply failed to turn up.
11.	I went back to the same ministers’ staff meeting a year later to try again. On the 2nd of March 2017 I was back in the same meeting, trying to follow up and re-set the appointment. It seemed obvious to me that this minister would have special insights into exactly the sort of in-between-the-churches liturgical dynamic with which my research is concerned.
12.	But this time ME010 turned me down flat. He said, “My situation is so different that my data will be out of line.” I got the feeling that ME010 had decided that this was the point at which he was going to justify non-participation
13.	I tried to argue how important his “out of line” insights would be to my project, but he was unmoveable. He seemed confident that he understood the requirements of my research in a way that I did not, and literally laughed off my attempts to persuade him about the importance of peripheral data in research such as this
14.	He again spoke about some specifics of his work which in my view placed him in exactly the right position to give insights to other Methodist ministers. MZ009 tried to show how his insights would be helpful, drawing cognates from his own ministry. But ME010, sadly, remained completely impervious to persuasion, and I am missing what I fear may be an important set of data points. 
15.	He did, however, promise me an informal interview after I had (safely) published my research. I will have to live in the hope of post-doctoral studies.

2016-04-08 FE006
FE006 suburb 1 Methodist
MM00.00: Interview with FE006 on the eighth of April 2016.  Thank you very much for answering these questions. I hope that they will just be a launching pad for a conversation, reflection…There is no right or wrong answer – this is polling your opinion. So what comes to mind is good – what I need. So first of all what I need is stories, if you can. What sort of evangelism happens in your local church or involves your congregation members in any way? Tell me some stories of what evangelism looks like in your church, from your church’s perspective and from your perspective. 
FE006:0055: Martin, I’ve only been there a couple of months. So it’s actually difficult to talk about the church as such and what’s …because I’m still only discovering what’s happening. But I think, you know, it’s an older congregation, and so I can only speak about what’s been happening since I’ve been there. 0130.  
MM0132: Just for the record, Merilyn works at FE006 suburb 1 Methodist Church. 
FE006:0138: So I can only speak about what people have said, that they love the Lord and whatever. The way that things have happened in the circuit, I haven’t had time to engage with a lot of people to say, “Tell me your story.” 0201 It’s been very difficult to engage on people’s stories. I’ve heard one or two stories, just on God’s goodness and grace and stuff, but not conversion and that kind of thing 
MM0216: Why do you think…those stories are there, why do you think that they are not more prominent? Is there
FE006:0220: I think it’s just because I’m aware that they are there, but in the Bible studies I lead there has been a talking of story, if I can put it that way. But I think it’s just mainly because I just fly in and fly out – it’s there, but I haven’t had the chance to engage. 
MM: because it’s personal?
FE006:0250: Yes.  But it’s there. I can see it. 
MM0301: Any stories about people who have been converted in the church? Or are you…
FE006:0304: Again, 
MM: What people have converted from? What changes have happened?
FE006:0310: I’m working with a gentleman at the moment who’s an alcoholic, and realises that there is a higher power. You know, and he is in the process
MM0323: I think that that AA thing is a conversion process myself
FE006:0328: Absolutely – that’s what I’m saying. And I think that one of the things that he’s been told is that he must share what is happening. So the other Sunday I engaged with him and we entered into a thing that he would come on a needs basis and when he’s able, that we will engage, that he can deepen his walk with God. 
MM: Now again, you’re new, you’re a wall-fixer here in this situation – I realise that. But would you estimate that the congregation has grown, stayed more or less the same or shrunk in numbers? What’s 
FE006:0400  I think it’s remained much the same, from what I can gather. We’ve had a few newies over the last few months, So that’s positive.
MM: I know about one of them – she’s the mother of a woman who works with my wife. 0445. Now she’s come in because she’s found a place at [name of institution withheld], I think. How have other people come into the church, these “newbies”? Where do they come from? How do you collect them up?
FE006:0501: I think…where they’re living, what’s the word I’m looking for – you know, they live there. And I think they have been on the outside and I think congregation members have drawn them. And that’s great – that’s evangelism. That’s what seems to be happening. 
MM0539: You don’t have any specialist outreach ministries, or do you? 
FE006:0545: We’ve got …ministries happening. FE006 referent minister 1 – he might be a good chap to speak to – we’ve got an outreach to the street dwellers and that kind of thing. And so members of the congregation are sort of involved with that. 0627. So I think that’s a ministry and there are people involved in it. And you know various little outreach things of the WA and those kind of things that are happening. You know, obviously, collecting jerseys and whatever. So there are sort of little things happening. And FE006 suburb 1 is involved in the wider scheme of things in the community. We don’t want to reinvent the wheel so we are supporting where we are able to ministries which are happening 
MM07210: We’ll get back to that in a later question, because I think there was somebody spoke to me and talked about these “great little things”. So please describe the congregation – this is question 4 – in terms of language, culture mix, and socio-economic factors. 
FE006:0746: Broad spectrum. Lots of obviously white folk, lots of coloured folk, and black folk are filtering in; some Zimbabwean, and South African black people. They are filtering in. So obviously languages would be across the board but obviously we preach in English. And socio-economic factors? Retired people, pensioners who are battling, some poorer white areas…so actually it’s a broad spectrum of people…0834.
MM0840: And age profile?
FE006:0842: Predominantly elderly folk. Predominantly. But there are 
MM0843: I was there on Local Preachers’ Sunday last year and there were some young people
FE006:0857: The Sunday School has grown a bit. Which is great. Obviously battling with young people. 
MM0911: If a strange preacher, a preacher who didn’t know your congregation was going to come and preach at your church, what would you like him or her to know before preaching there? How would you prime them to be effective as a stranger?
FE006:0930: I think I would, you know, tell them the dynamics of the church in terms  of age – predominantly elderly folk – but I would say to him, “Think, buddy!” 
MM0953: Now, question 5. Do you teach people about evangelism, and if so what aspects do you emphasize? 
FE006:1001: I think that indirectly I do teach about evangelism, in that we are all evangelists. 
MM1016: I understand that – but I’m not talking about any particular sermon – but as part of the whole mix of teaching
FE006:1019: Absolutely. I think my emphasis is that we are all evangelists and that we evangelise all the time, by how we live… and that it’s not just a preaching, saying “You must come to know Jesus”, but every aspect of our life, what we say, how we live, what we think, how we interact is all evangelism. And so my sermons are very much making people aware of the responsibility that we carry, whatever we are doing, whatever the situation or wherever we find ourselves, whoever we find ourselves with – that we are in an evangelism situation. Building the Kingdom. 
MM1113: Now if you were tasked to prepare an evangelistic sermon which was hoping to persuade other people to put their faith in Christ, if someone asked you as a guest speaker to do this…what sort of approach would you take?
FE006:1126: I think I would tell my story. Because I think personal experience is more valid and is more stronger than just saying to people “You must come to Jesus”, because that can become a thing… but I think to tell my story and obviously sharing how I have come to Jesus and what that has meant to me over the years, a deepening, and I would suggest it to you – I would recommend. So I think – from a story perspective. 
MM1226: OK. Looking back at John Wesley’s story…are there any stories that you might use to illustrate aspects of evangelism? 
FE006:1239: I think there are, yes, I think his whole thing of how he did church, his whole heart-warming experience at Aldersgate which revolutionised his preaching and his teaching and his  
MM1304: Yes, reading in his journals you just see this fascinating change 
FE006:1308: And I think that’s the power of story
MM1315: Yes. Anything more about the “power of story”? I’m a story teller myself – I love stories!
FE006:1318: You know I think that just on Sunday I was actually talking about Peter, and the power of story  in his life, in that his boldness, that he could go and tell the story because he had experienced personally – it wasn’t just a head thing, it was a head and the heart thing. Which made the power of story that we can speak with boldness and authority, and we speak with conviction when we tell the story. That it’s not just a theoretical thing. But that it becomes a conviction of our own.
MM1404: Now are some members of your regularly attending congregation more involved in evangelism than others? If so, drawing on your pastoral experience, could you explain the reasons?
FE006:1417: You know again just being in this congregation for such a short time it’s very tricky for me to say here…but I think in previous congregations (and my background is that I was married to a Methodist minister for many years before I entered the ministry myself) I think people are scared….when they hear the word evangelism, there’s a connotation that I must go out on the street corners and preach and tell people “Come to Jesus or else you’re going to burn” 1448. So I think that that antiquated idea means that people are scared of evangelism. And yet others it’s a sort of natural thing. So I think it’s helping people to understand in a sense that we are all evangelists in one way or another, however we evangelise makes the difference… and our natural sort of leanings. So yes, I think some would be more involved in evangelism as they understand it 
MM1542: What persuades people to be involved in evangelism?
FE006:1550: I think if people think of evangelism as standing on the street corner or whatever, I think that for some people there’s a passion that some people have that other people come to Christ. And I think that that could be a good motivator, for that section of people. 
MM1619: Do you have any of those in your congregation…that you know of?
FE006:1628: [long pause] There could be. Let me put it that way. You know, I’m still getting to know people. That’s the tragedy of what’s happened in the circuit – that I haven’t really got the time to – which is my own passion – which is to relate to people. To hear their stories and actually discover what makes them tick and what and where their passions lie. To be able to help them to channel their passions. It’s a bit frustrating, but what can I do? That’s how it is.
MM1718: I’m sorry. Now, I said we were going to get back to the soup kitchens. Question seven handles that. Does your church take responsibility for situations in the world that are not directly related to the concerns of your church life? So what responsibilities does your church have towards society in general?
FE006:1735: I think, ja, they have been, I know, we’re involved with [name of institution withheld] (you know [name of institution withheld]?) So they’re involved with that. We’re busy now in the community of FE006 suburb 1 setting up another soup kitchen with which we will be involved one week per month…and we’re joining with other churches in the area. We hold a meeting regularly with the other churches in the area in which we are looking at other projects for the street people and so, and members of the congregation are involved. We’ve just completed a training centre at FE006 suburb 1 1835 for computers and upskilling and that, where people can also come and do CVs and send CVs and people have access to the internet and stuff like that, and so there’s a group that’s involved with that kind of stuff. So helping people to upgrade themselves. 
MM1907: Hi-tech outreach. In your opinion what is the relationship between evangelism and these things? Or are these things in themselves evangelism?
FE006:1917: I think these things ARE evangelism. I think for me every action should be motivated in helping people to come to know Christ. For me as a Christian that’s what we should be thinking, breathing, eating – helping others come into the relationship and the heart-warming John Wesley experience: so they can KNOW that they are saved from their sin, so they can KNOW that Christ loves them. And so every action, everything in the church, every personal action should be geared towards helping people to come to know Christ as Lord, and to deepen that relationship, so that they become disciples – that it’s a long term thing and not just a tourist attraction. 
MM2022: Any ways in which John Wesley’s thinking influences this concern for the needs of others who are not part of the church?
FE006:2033: Well, you know, the thing that he said “Do all the good you can by all the means you can in all the ways you can” - 
MM: Thinking about conversion and conversion factors. In your opinion, what are the factors involved in conversion? It’s more of a theological question, but drawing on all your experience in a lifetime of ministry…
FE006:2124: I think the discovery that Christ is alive; that we serve a living God. And the discovery that this Jesus loves us. To the extent of, I mean, Easter. And to help people grasp that they are loved and that Jesus makes such a difference….It’s vital!
MM2206: So there’s some information that people need to learn – that God loves them, that they can have this relationship with him…
FE006:2210: That he’s real
MM2219: That he’s real, yes. That’s very interesting. You’re the first person who’s actually stressed that – and I think it’s quite important. Do you think that some people are perhaps more converted than others? 
FE006:2239: No, I think that if you are converted you’re converted. It’s how you play out, if I can put it that way. I think that once you have accepted Christ you have accepted Christ, you can’t be more converted than anybody else. But how you exercise that, how you exercise your conversion. Some will be more committed than others, more passionate than others….I mean I just look at, over the years, some people burn with passion for Christ and others are “Well, I know him, but he fits into my world” sort of thing. 
MM2228: Now you talked earlier about loving to work with people to encounter more of him. 
FE006:2334: I think that the transition for me is where I think that old Methodist hymn, I can’t remember the number, in the old Methodist hymn book, “Some of God and all  of me” …and that you can get to the point where it’s “All of God and none of me”. And I think it’s helping people to journey to that point where the transition takes place, where people begin to realise it’s all about God – us fitting into his program, and not God fitting into our program. So I think it’s a process, it’s a journey to get there. And I think that is part of the evangelism too, is helping this to unfold. That people can begin to discover their own story
MM2446: How does our understanding of conversion relate to Wesley’s theological emphases?
FE006:2509: [looooong pause]. Necessary? 
MM2522: Yes, that would summarize it very nicely. Moving on then to question number nine. We’re going along merrily!
FE006:2530: Yes, that’s my nickname
MM2540: yes, for obvious reasons! If you think of all the languages and cultures there are, and all the cultures and needs, which of these people is your church evangelising (as you’ve defined evangelism)? And which people would you like them to evangelise? Are there some people, some areas that you might long for your church to be more active amongst in terms of being people 
FE006:2550 Yes well the obvious answer would be those on the street. And I think for me one of the things that is so important is to evangelise people who are mediocre. I think you get a lot of folk who have perhaps had that conversion experience, or maybe not. If I come back to John Wesley, who are doing church like John Wesley did. I think for those people to have a heart-warming experience. That it could almost be instead of a mind thing? That it could become a heart thing. I think for me - maybe in happy clappy churches it’s different - but I think in the traditional churches, I think you have a lot of people who I’d like to give a klap to: [mimics the action of slapping someone on the side of the head] for them to wake up to understand. But I think that people can really have a heart-warmed experience. To really know that it’s not just about coming to church, but that it’s about your whole being being immersed in the love of Christ. And 2753 
MM2754: What sort of different culture and language groups do your congregation mingle with in the world beyond church, outside of church? What sort of different sectors of society are impinged on by your members? 
FE006:2819: I think with them being predominantly elderly they’re within a group of like-minded people, and obviously some crotchety people, if I can put it like that. So I think that for the majority. But I think that in their work places get faced with different faiths and different cultures, a broad spectrum of different people. 
MM2858: Do you  have members who are active in education and things like 
FE006:2905: Some. Some.
MM2906: Or the police or… 
FE006:2911: You know again, Martin, I only know the people superficially, so I’m beginning to learn who works where, who’s involved with what … and I’m trying that when I do interact with people I can learn their story, if I can put it like that. As much as I can in the given moments that I’m with them. So, as I attend meetings with them or whatever I try to interact so that I can hear where people are, what makes them tick, what their needs are. That I can be more effective as a minister. 
MM: People from other parts of Africa – what sort of line are they in? Are they carers, are they university students…what’s their 
FE006:3018: Again, the relationship is superficial. So for some of them I really don’t know. I mean literally, if people are not involved in the meetings and stuff like that, I see them on a Sunday. And so my interaction is at the door, because I make a point of going to the door and trying to interact just superficially with each person as they leave.  
MM3111: OK, question ten. What sort of evangelism do you consider that outsiders find the most persuasive? I think you’ve touched on this quite a lot, but what do you think that outsiders to your community would find most persuasive? If they experienced it through your church members? 
FE006:3134: And I think that for me that’s the crux. Because it’s easy to walk into a church and be seen as part of the church or whatever, but when they leave what form of witness are they experiencing? That’s for me the crux – not so much that you go to church and people are seen, but it’s the interaction, it’s how people deal with each other…It’s all very well if you can smile and say “hhh…hhh” [high pitched ‘cute’ sound ] in the church, but when you deal with a person on the street who’s drunk, or is begging, or whatever – you know, one can still say “No” but with love – and that for me is the crucial, critical thing.  
MM: Looking at the shadow side, what would outsiders find the most unbearable, the most unattractive?
FE006:3247: I think double standards. Double standards. Saying, but not living. That for me – not that I’ve got it right – I’m so conscious of it. It’s not what we say, it’s not what we do, but it’s who we are – so that the deep innards are steeped in 
MM3341: John Wesley seemed to bring people to this point that we want them to come to – he was like a genius at it. What made him so good at it?
FE006:3356: [looong pause] Who knows? I suppose, I think, when I read…he got up at some unearthly hour to spend that time in Christ’s presence. That must have done the thing that him spending time in Christ’s presence was able to fuel him to come back to my him, “All of you and none of me” …And it could have been part of his personality – he could be quite forthright, I think. 
MM3515: And then the last question, question eleven. Is there any budget allocation for people, concerns beyond the church? Please explain the reasons
FE006:3520: I think in terms of reaching out in ministry and stuff like that there is part of our budget allocation. But actually I couldn’t tell you. The treasurer and I are still trying to get together on a date when he’s available and I’m available. And so we communicate over email at the moment and the odd thing at church. But there is an allocation
MM3602: Is there an allocation specifically for evangelism? Or is it just considered to be part of other stuff?
FE006:3609: You know, again, I’ve looked at the goodies, but as I sit here now I haven’t retained the goodies. But also the folk are very – I see now when we’ve sat in our meetings, the exec meetings – that people are not tight fisted and closed. Which is awesome. 
MM3646: You having been a veteran of many churches that is a…… [missing segment of sentence]
FE006:3649: Hallelujah. Hallelujah. 
MM3655: My last sub-question on this question has generated a lot of interesting comments from different ministers already, so I’m interested to hear what you are going to say. Imagine a donor donates ten thousand rand and says “You must spend this on evangelism”. How would you spend it, or how would you like it to be spent?
FE006:3714: I think I would divide it. And I think I would do some courses. On helping people to deepen. I would allocate some to…
MM3739: So that goes with your understanding that evangelism comes out of a spiritually deep life?
FE006:3745: Yes. So I think I would divide it up. I wouldn’t just one specific area. I think that I would filter it, but in a sense I would, like I say deepening spiritual walk with Christ. Probably pure-out evangelism of going to wherever and doing the old fashioned street thing, if I can put it like that, not obviously standing on the street but that idea of… I think I would divide it up so that it would reach far and wide
MM3838: That reminds me of part of a previous question: if you think of Cape Town, from Hout Bay to Mfuleni, and from Bellville to Somerset West, are there any places your congregation would consider a no-go area? Areas where they have no concern? What’s your sense of geography of the church, of your geographical responsibility? Far-and-wideness. How far and wide is the far and wide?
FE006:3920: Well, I know that they’ve been involved – that they coupled with Worcester. So there’s ongoing…I think that last year, as far as I can gather, when there was fires or floods or whatever it was, there was an incredible response from the folk. And people were helped at Wolsley, Worcester and whatever and the people responded unbelievably. But I mean that was a one-off thing…. I had a meeting with somebody yesterday and they were saying that they were still partnered with there, and they were still meeting in terms of stuff that can happen over there. And you know I was told that the response was absolutely unbelievable from the congregation. So I think through crises like that there is. Ongoing stuff I think there are within the community of FE006 suburb 1, which is right there  
MM4050: Conditioned by the socio economic profile of the congregation?
FE006:4055: I don’t think so. I think it’s stuff that has been brought to their attention. I think the more that gets brought to their attention, that old saying that “knowledge is power”, I think the more knowledge they have, or the more they are made aware, I think their hearts would respond. So I think again the onus lies on us as leadership to bring ….awareness. 
MM4139: OK, well that’s my questions. Is there anything you would like to say that I didn’t ask about? ….my potential for missing things is almost infinite – only eleven questions short of infinite.
FE006:4210: Martin, no. As I sit here…we’ve basically chatted about it all
MM: Well, Meredith, thank you very, very much. I will handle your data carefully and in due course I will tell you your code number and you will be able to pick  out your comments in my study.
4216 words
2016-02-17 ME007
Age 48
ME007 suburb 1 Methodist
MM: 00.00 I am speaking with the Reverend ME007 in ME007 suburb 1 on the 18th of August 2016. Brian, thank you for speaking with me. I wonder if you can tell me about any evangelism that happens in your local church or involves your congregation members in any way?
ME007: 0039 At the moment there is not too much per se, we have used in the past things like Alpha…and there have been a lot of events in the past, programs that have been introduced such as Alpha. But at the moment there’s not really much in terms of evangelism per se. Our black community have a thing called “revival” where they go and they call the people in to worship and so on, but I don’t think that that has been an effective way of evangelism in terms of getting converts. 0121. So I always say my lay people are supposed to be the ones who are supposed to be the evangelists, out in the community. But for me I use opportunities such as community police forum, funerals, weddings… as a way to try and hook people into the church, a love for the church.
MM: 0203 I think that weddings and funerals are uniquely the ways in which ministers can evangelise, a role you fill
ME007: 0204:  Unfortunately it doesn’t always work that way. In this community of which I am part it has worked in the past, and in other communities, but not this one. 
MM0215 OK. Tell me some stories about people who have experienced conversion in your local church. Do you have any? Dating far back or more recent ones?
ME007: 0230  You’ve got ones dating from very far back but what you tend to have here is people who are Christians by birth.  People have grown up in the church and then moved out, and old people have stayed behind, and the young people have moved away. Evangelism happens I suppose on campus, where we have some input into [name of institution withheld] and [name of institution withheld] here in this area. But I must say that this is a huge area of evangelism. 
MM0334: Well we need to come back to that and throw it about – some questions will come up later as to why it’s an issue or an area of failure. 
ME007: 0352  Unfortunately there are not many stories of conversion per se. I know people have experienced grace in harsh situations – and have learned to deal with grief, for example, or high stress, or that kind of thing – to deal with life in a Christian way. So if you want to call those little conversions per se along the way, I mean that’s one thing… 
MM0421 What is conversion? 
ME007: 0424 Conversion in the terms of a non-church-goer, a person who would before never enter the doors of a church and suddenly experience Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour – unfortunately we don’t have many of those stories. But if you talk about little conversions you know it’s like the main conversion happens almost by osmosis it seems in this community rather than by the radical “I was not a church-goer and now suddenly I am”
MM0510: My reading so far suggests that there are different ways in which people convert
ME007: 0515: Ja.  
MM0520: But just to ask a background question: the last five years, would you estimate that your congregation has grown, stayed more or less the same, or shrunk in numbers?
ME007: 0527:  I think it has probably stayed the same – it has plateaued. In our eight o’clock and nine-thirty service  - those are our English services, even though they are multi-cultural, they’re English. And at those are predominantly elderly people. There are some younger people with children at Sunday school age, but by no means what it used to be say twenty years ago. Not even close. The Sunday school is about twenty, thirty, forty people maybe in comparison to 200 twenty years ago. 0618. So the dynamic of the Society has changed. And then our eleven o’clock congregation, they are continually having new people coming in, but they’re also having people exiting - 
MM0635: I’m quite interested in that – where are the new people come in from and where are they going?
ME007: 0637:  The universities. So it’s that transition. People come in for a two, three year period and then they’re out. Some even less – those who fail at the university, It’s a transient group that’s why it’s plateaued in numbers even though there’s a flow of people – numbers haven’t grown, and they haven’t decreased. 
MM0706: Do you sometimes have the sad situation where you have an exit interview with someone who’s leaving because they’re disgruntled? Quite a lot of ministers do. What sort of reasons do they give for leaving the church? Or do they just fade away?
ME007: 0721  I had one conversation with one of our black local preachers who left because there wasn’t a Sunday school for the eleven o’clock service, and he wanted his children to grow up in a Sunday School. And he was one of our good local preachers. He went over to ME007 suburb 3. But I haven’t come across much by way of disgruntled people here. They are pretty much settled. They have this strange thing that even if they move physically away they retain their membership. Which is a bizarre thing for me. I say, move your membership to where you are, if you ever move. You can move your membership back…But they like to maintain their – it’s something to do with their sense of rootedness. 0823. We don’t get much in the way of new blood coming in except for those transitionary people coming in from students. Whereas before I’ve had people moving in and out in other churches. But I’m speaking about this church now. 
MM0850: Do you have people who - you’ve talked about one set of people who consider themselves to be members although they’re living, working, worshipping elsewhere – do you have people maybe in the nearer community who consider themselves members but don’t attend very often? Do you have a Christmas congregation?
ME007: 0910:  O absolutely. There’s no doubt about that. I think that’s a country-wide [inaudible word] but we have that. …I think they just have some historical root. It’s like some people who have grown up in the church, whose parents have been leaders in the church, who have been prominent before. They as young people have moved out and moved away to other churches because they don’t just want to be seen as the child of so-and-so. 0948. They want to be seen as their own person. … So it’s one of those situations. The younger folk have moved away. 1043. To worship at other places, but then they join their parents for like Christmas. And then we have a lot of people here, who, at Christmas and New Year go away, and so they actually give in their Christmas collection money during December, during early December, they give in their envelope – so they are bizarrely different. 
MM1120: Well, it’s interesting. It’s fascinating. Church is endlessly fascinating. The dynamics of church. 
ME007: 1129:  But there are people that obviously come and visit as well just at Christmas. 
MM1135: OK, could you please describe your congregation in terms of language, culture mix, socio-economic factors
ME007: 1148:  Right. At our eight o’clock service predominantly elderly people, and then the Sunday school teachers, because they worship at eight and then do Sunday school a nine-thirty. …so that’s a traditional service, hymn sandwich kind of thing – conducted in English. Mainly white and coloured people there. Nine Thirty? An array of people. Predominantly white but with quite a large number of coloured folk. And there are a sprinkling of black folk as well, from Zimbabwe, Nigeria, Congo,….so people who would not understand the Xhosa [mispronounced] but would come in for English. We don’t have a service in French or anything. One of the other congregations, the Baptist church I think, has a French service. But the eleven o’clock service is in Xhosa [attempts click ] but also has a lot of Sotho and Pedi people [1314] but their service is basically in Xhosa. 
MM: 1325  Is that also a liturgical, prayer-book service?
ME007: 1326  Very much so… It’s very much a liturgical service – the ombadesho. So that’s eight o’clock, hymn sandwich, nine-thirty contemporary worship, it’s the choruses
MM: 1338 You don’t have an evening service?
ME007: : 1340  No. we used to 
MM: 1343 Why was that…?
ME007: 1344  It fell apart. We tried numerous things. When I arrived it really was a case of the worship team and the preacher. So the preacher would sit in the pew while the worship team played, and then we’d swap places 
MM: 1403 Then you’d be preaching to the choir
ME007: 1406  Ja. And we tried other things. We tried to introduce courses in the evening, and that fell apart. It didn’t work, even though there was, I think, good quality material in use there. At the most there were twelve people who would come on a Sunday night and it was just not worthwhile. So we did away with the service
MM: 1438 It’s interesting, the dynamics, sort of the urban and suburban dynamics 
ME007:  1447  Evening services used to be a big thing, particularly among young people. And there are one or two churches who do evening services. There’s a church just down the road here called the ME008 suburb 4 NG Kerk. It’s got a big tower, the highest in the province, and they’ve got a big youth. They draw on Afrikaans schools in the area. Whereas we’ve really got no English schools to draw on to get…  
MM: 1519 That’s interesting, ja…ok...Let’s move on to question five, here. Do you teach people about evangelism, and if so, what aspects do you emphasize?  
ME007: 1541  Right…one thing I teach the fact that they’re supposed to be the evangelists because they are meeting the people in the world that I will never meet, except when they want service delivery of certain things 
MM: 1552 Except when they die?
ME007: 1553  Ja, it’s like when you…you know, I only go to the dentist when my tooth is sore. I’m meant to go to the dentist every six months for a check-up. I just don’t do that. So I figure that most people in the world today don’t come to church every six months just to check it out if I’m fine, they’ll come in for a funeral or a wedding. So those are the only opportunities I get to see people that are non-church-goers. Whereas the congregation are seeing them in their work-places, so they need to be the evangelists. [1635]. And so I taught that to them. And is this place of worship so friendly and loving that you would want to invite your friends – or is it a place you think “well no, these people would feel very strange in this environment”? 
MM: 1700 If you were to preach a sermon in which your goal was to persuade people to become Christians, what would you say
ME007: 0  laughs 
MM: 00 laughs
ME007: 1710  Ja…well I guess I would start with the hunger. When I’m dealing with people, for example, in a marriage, I will speak about a hunger for an enriched marriage. Marriage as God intended it to be. A top of the notch…how do you get top of the notch marriages that are a cut above the rest? Whatever the rest is. But you kind of phrase it in that way to say, “Well, you know, God actually wants he best marriage for you”, you know. So that’s the one sort of approach, is digging into a hunger. The other thing is, in terms of like a grief situation – it could be a case of “How does God meet with us in the midst of our tears?” In terms of if I was to address a business forum, I would say, “How does God meet us in the pressures and stresses of a working environment?” [1818]. 
MM: 1824 And if the police forum asked you to do a service?
ME007: 1826  Well, I do do a lot with them…have done a lot with them before.  
MM: 1834 They must require a lot of funerals?
ME007: 1836  No, no, not so many funerals. They’ve got chaplains to do that. I … the regular spaces I’ve been in…I’ve been a regular attender at their meetings, their station meetings, and I think that that was actually one of the joys of my ministry was actually getting involved with that. And every week I would just do a two- three-minute devotions with the police. But …and just talking to values of integrity ,values of, er…. what else…you know of how our picture of God shapes who we are, trying to get in touch with their needs. Because I did a lot of research … and I suppose that part of my ministry, out of the thirty years of my ministry, I enjoyed that the most. [1945]. And just going and touching sides with them, and with them opening up to me in a way that they wouldn’t have opened up to their psychologists or their chaplains because they were always fearful that if they opened up to their psychologists and chaplains it would go on their file and affect their promotions, and yet they would open up to me. And so those kinds of talks would just open up a door to their lives. That’s when things unlocked for me.  
MM: 2025 Do you know any stories from John Wesley’s life, or is that digging a bit far back? Do you draw on stories that sort of come from that era at all?....pause….in terms of evangelism?
ME007: 2041  long pause…Occasionally, occasionally. If I were to give an example, I gave a sermon series on John Wesley’s sermon on money: gain all you can, save all you can, give all you can. And I said that that was preached in the context of economic deprivation. So it wasn’t like this glorious idealistic picture. It was spoken in that context. So let’s not complain about poverty now as if it was something new. John Wesley preached it in situations of poverty – their ..so I did draw on the …but I don’t often do that. 
MM: 2142 OK… well, moving on to question six then, perhaps, are some members of your regularly attending congregation more involved in evangelism than others? If so, drawing on your pastoral experience, could you explain the reasons?
ME007: 2200  I think that there are very few, if any…although that might be a little harsh. That …not noticeably at all in terms of evangelism per se. Except in like their family situations. And their frustrations with, for example if their children who have gone wayward and they are trying to pray for their children who are wayward and are trying to teach them the way forward and so on. I’ve got a few elderly people whose children are not involved in the life of the church at all, and that’s very frustrating for them. I always try and assure them that God has the bigger picture, and that God can bring salvation to people even at the last minute. [2300]. So just keep praying. And so they are trying to be witnesses within those contexts. Another way 
MM: 2312 It’s tough, isn’t it
ME007: 2315  I don’t think this whole thing of handing out tracts, or going door-to-door evangelism, that does not exist in our… 
MM: 2323 Is that evangelism?
ME007: 2330  I don’t think it is…I think that is….It’s a form of evangelism that some places have adopted, if you think of the Jehovah’s Witnesses and that sort of stuff.  Which is a form, but I would not recommend it as the form. We’re not on a crusade 
MM: 2352 So what do you…you’ve said that it’s the heartache of a wayward child that makes people realise how wonderful the gospel is and want to …long to have the gospel communicated to the child. What else triggers a concern for evangelism, do you think? Amongst people?
ME007: 2412  I think issues like crime, corruption, poverty all those sort of things triggers something within people for a life of integrity, a life where there is sharing, where there is a seeking for an enriched, better-quality life, leads people to say the Gospel message can provide something towards that. …Yes, I just think that in terms of my area, where I’ve looked at, in terms of the Church and crime, I’ve looked at where do I touch a need here? In terms of the prisoner, the policeman, the court-system, the victims of crime, other security companies, the paramedics…all those people are involved in crime, per se.  Now how does the Gospel touch each of their lives, what does the church have to say to them in their particular situation?
MM: 2525 Sounds like it’s going to be an impressive book, it’s going to be a magnum opus!
ME007:2532  Now that is my passion. That is my form of evangelism, ok? Other people use their love for animals as a form of evangelism, caring for God’s creation. Now I’m not denying that importance, of caring for creation, but I’m not an animal lover, per se. I’m anti-cruelty, but I 
MM: 2558 You’re not a Francis of Assisi man
ME007: 2559  Ja…but I don’t deny their calling. But it’s not mine [laughs]. Mine has been in the area of crime and that, but also having done many funerals than I care to remember 
MM: 00 Crime related?
ME007: 2622  Not necessarily – just general funerals. So I think, generally those areas. Funnily enough, though, not here. Funerals and weddings, I’ve hardly done any here.  
MM: 2637 How long have you been here?
ME007: 2638  Four years. I’ve got one year left and then I’m hoping to actually to go back closer to Gauteng, for other reasons.   
MM: 2656 Ja, you’re adrift amongst a sea of Stormers supporters – it must be awful
ME007: 0   Laughter
MM: 2709  Now looking at question number seven, you’ve highlighted how … you’ve just been talking about exactly this, meeting the needs of people who are not directly related to your church life – if so, what responsibilities does your local church have towards society in general? I hear that you are involved with police ministry, as much as you can. 
ME007: 2731  Yes…but that’s been my own thing. The church haven’t really joined me in that. But where the church has really taken responsibility for situations in the world have been for example our New Life Centre, which is a centre for pregnant women in crisis. So when people fall pregnant in terms of rape, or even when they know the …or they don’t know the father, or prostitution, or through drugs, or whatever. Some are rich, some are poor, some are young, some are old. But they fall pregnant and they are in crisis. They come to our centre, which looks at their needs – their physical needs, because they maybe can’t afford to give birth at a hospital or whatever, so [2836]; or feed themselves, or feed the baby, or anything like that. So we look after them through their pregnancy until they’ve given birth. And assist in terms of job-skills training to hopefully give them a fresh start, and also offer alternatives, or at least explore with them alternatives to abortion. That’s how it started, when the Church said that abortion is OK, this church said, “No, it’s not OK”. We had to put our money where our mouth is and actually help these people so that their automatic, default response is not abortion, when they’re in crisis. 
MM: 00 Who staffs that?
ME007: 2927  We’ve got lay people who start that; and parents. An elderly couple, but deeply, deeply committed Christians … and they are the sort of house parents. So some of the people come in for a short period of time, till birth – so they come in late in the pregnancy. Some come in fairly early in their pregnancy into the centre. The earlier they come in the better, because then we can journey with them, we can help train them, we can help and explore options in terms of adoption. We work with a particular social worker in the area that we’ve developed a relationship with. It’s …so if you were to say that that is a form of evangelism, then that would be true, I think. In terms of its touching people who might not otherwise have been exposed to the gospel, drug addicts, etc., etc. 
MM: 3031 Getting back to John Wesley, is there anything in the John Wesley story that runs alongside these concerns? 
ME007: 3042  Well, we haven’t deliberately made those kinds of links
MM: 00 OK, I’m just exploring. One of the things I’m exploring is how much of John Wesley is there in the church at the moment 
ME007: 3100  So it’s I think underlying it…not explicitly so. They haven’t said “Oh, John Wesley says we must address the social ills of society like alcohol abuse or whatever. They’re addressing Gospel. They’re bringing Gospel. And people from those contexts are being attracted to the Gospel message.   
MM: 00 It’s one of the areas that I’m looking at, and I’m finding it very interesting to see 
ME007: 3131  We just see the need, and we are addressing that need. So that’s one of the things. And the other is providing a home for the elderly. We’ve got a house called Alpha House that provides accommodation and at least a meal a day for those who can\t afford to go into old age homes. But those are small, small projects that over the years have seen many people coming through the doors
MM: 3213 Well, God says to Nehemiah, “Do not despise the day of small beginnings”. Sorry. I’m not supposed to be putting stuff on record here…once a preacher always a preacher, that’s the problem. Um, in your opinion, looking at question eight, what are the most important factors involved in conversion? We talked about conversion a bit earlier
ME007: 3243  I think in terms of  a need or a hunger being met … that’s quite an important one. It doesn’t mean that the church can address every need in society. Because we are a very small community. In terms of numbers we are not a big community. We can probably get about at the most 400 people
MM: 3312 So is that on the books or attending?
ME007: 3322  Attending. But like I say some are people who just come through for shorter periods of time because of university or whatever….Ja…. so I think that addressing that particular need or two. We’ve had situations as well where we’ve done odd things like tracksuits for children just prior to winter. Providing school uniforms for those who can’t afford school uniforms. We’ve made sleeping bags out of newspaper and plastic for the homeless people. We provide meals – we work in partnership with Mess… Oh that’s the other thing – just addressing the need, but also in partnership with other organisations like Mess I don’t know if you know Mess? Metropolitan Evangelical Services: they provide care for the homeless, providing them with jobs opportunities, training – they help people get back on their feet. Ideally to help homeless people get back connected to their families and into a job that’s sustainable. They’re just down the road from us as well, so we work in partnership with them. And like the New Life Centre – it works in partnership with social services, and with ME008 nearby 1 Hospital; and sometimes, if there are complicated births, complications, if the baby’s the wrong way – then it’s ME008 nearby 2 hospital; but mostly it’s ME008 nearby 1 Hospital.  
MM: 3516 Just getting back to conversion… is there any cognitive…what sort of for someone to…
ME007: 3522  There needs to be some mind-shift there 
MM: 00 Yes, what’s happening there?
ME007: 3527  I guess it’s because people are here, are often born into a quote unquote “Christian home”. There isn’t a conversion in the terms of moving from a non-church to suddenly becoming a ch… a committed Christian in that sense. Although I would love for that to be the case but it’s not; not here. That’s not to say it doesn’t happen elsewhere. I would love it to happen here but it… we fail. We don’t meet that requirement here. But a shift in other ways, either a shift from head knowledge becoming a heart thing, so that I adopt for myself the faith that I was brought up in, can be a form of conversion. And then those little conversions that happen along the way as I have my mind changed about viewing society, or a need, or whatever. In narrative theology we talk about side-line stories and predominant stories and about allowing those side-line stories to become new dominant stories in our lives. For example, if a person considers themselves a victim or whatever – whether it’s a victim of crime or a victim of abuse or a victim of their upbringing or their potty training and whatever…to actually discover that there are other [3714] stories where hopefully also God has been involved in as well. And God can change those stories into new [indistinct word] ones. It’s a shift in mind: whether you talk about from head to heart or whether you think about shifting the way we think about our dominant stories 
MM: 00 Right.. that is  very helpful. Thank you. 
ME007: 3744  So ja, I think it…addressing needs, working in partnerships with other organisations and this mind-shift are parts of conversion for me. 
MM: 3800 Thanks. And here it comes… how does your understanding of conversion relate to Wesley’s theological emphases?
ME007: 0  I think he was a person who…[pause] … he was unashamedly proclaiming a message of the grace of God. I know that we heard at our synod meeting just the other day that people are “over-graced”. I do not believe that at all. I strongly disagree with that. 
MM: 3843 Would you say they’re under-graced?
ME007: 3845  Absolutely! Totally under-graced. That’s why there’s so much tension   and mistrust, why here’s so much resentment: because people are under-graced. They don’t know the message of forgiveness, of healing, of what Christ has accomplished for us. So we’re still living with the haunting memories of the past; we still live with old paradigms, old filters…and we enjoy them so much, consciously or unconsciously, that we get stuck in those things. And for me John Wesley spoke a message of grace – that there is another way. And he spoke that. And spoke it particularly into situations where there was slavery, for example, same ways as ..[clicks fingers] that guy, he was a member of parliament at the time of Whitefield – Amazing grace? 
MM: 4015 John Newton? The slavery reformers?
ME007: 4017  He was a member of parliament 
MM: 4018 Wilberforce
ME007: 4019  Yes! In that same way, politicians 
MM: 4025 Wilberforce, Buxtons, ja
ME007: 4026  So he never spoke to that, but he spoke about an alternative way, another way of speaking the Gospel message of grace. And people were drawn to that. And then he would put people into support groups, cell groups, accountability groups, whatever you want to call them, after their first awakenings, where they would discover more of what this mind-shift entailed.  So [inaudible word] encouraged them to study, to read, to search for this God that they had now been awakened to … so I never kind of see him attending parliament, speaking against parliament on an issue like that. [4131]. He spoke grace. 
MM: 4141 OK. Now let’s get on to question number nine. I’m enjoying this very much, by the way. If you think of all the languages there are, and all the types of people there are, which of these people is your church evangelising, and which would you like them to evangelise? What I am looking for here is some sort of analysis of your surrounding cultures, and opportunity, some sort of wish list for contact with communities beyond your church.
ME007: 4208.  Sure…[long pause]…[4227]. Well, we addressed {inaudible phrase] the Ombedesho and those who like the Ombedesho. Those who don’t like it aren’t attracted to our eleven o’clock service. They come to the nine thirty or the eight o’clock service. I think the nice thing about our church is that we’ve got the three types of worship, so people can choose where do they fit in. I think I address people’s needs through sermon content. Other people might be more gifted in terms of leading worship, [4310] and leading liturgy, but that’s not my gift. My gift is in my sermons – I give a lot as a pastoral preacher, drawing people into the Gospel. I think that in terms of addressing some of our social needs, like our crisis centre, our old age homes, our ministries to children, outreaches to the street people in Partnership with MES…but we’ve had a lot of shortcomings. If I were to say some of my wish list I think we need to get into the whole area of policing. Although the crime here is not as bad as it was up in Joburg, Gauteng area. It’s nowhere even close. In the police forum meeting, the first police forum meeting I attended here, when they gave their crime stats, I burst out laughing [4416]. Because their monthly figures was what was happening per night in my neighbourhood, where I was. I thought, “There’s no crime here!”  Is that a thing? 
MM: 4436 Let’s keep it that way
ME007: 4438  No, obviously. But I think that there are needs in terms of…there’s a whole community of people who are resident around our area church but are not catered for by our church. That is the Somalians, Nigerians, ZImbabweans 
MM: 4505 Central African Republic?
ME007: 4508  Ja? Congolese…there are a smattering of people who come in, but by far the …we don’t touch
MM: 4514 Do your congregation members mix with people from these groups?
ME007: 4520   No.  
MM: 4526 So there’s no sort of natural contact?
ME007: 4528  Our eleven o’clock congregation come from as far afield as ME008 suburb 4, ME008 suburb 5, ME008 “township”suburb 6, ME008 “township” suburb 7 – they all come in. They’re parastatal people, they all work in government, that kind of stuff so they come in all their Porsches, BMWs and their Mercedes Benzes – it’s that kind of elite group. So 
MM: 4550 So John Wesley rides his horse up to your church, ties it up…what does he see?
ME007: 4600  He sees, across the road, in the park, you know that park between the church – in that park there are drug deals going on. People are selling and exchanging drugs. There’s prostitution throughout the Boston/Oakdale area. There’s prostitution all over the place. And wherever there’s prostitution there’s drugs. So those two areas alone, and the homeless are increasing here; more and more homeless people are being drawn, for some reason or other, to ME007 suburb 1. And we haven’t touched – I mean we have touched, but it’s just the tip of the iceberg, it’s not even the tip, it’s the top drop of the iceberg 
MM: 4700 Joh, it’s challenging being in pastoral ministry
ME007: 4703  I haven’t even touched that….one of your things, I don’t know why, you say why do you think people don’t do evangelism? It’s one of your previous questions. And I often reflect on why they don’t do what they’re taught? Is it because they are embarrassed about the Gospel? Or they fear that the Gospel is irrelevant or too spiritualised to be of need to society? Is it that they think it is irrelevant? Is it that they are too embarrassed or they can’t make the connection between what Jesus said and did? Or is it the fear of getting our fingers burnt? Of taking on too much – you go in with a finger of help and your whole arm  [4802] gets taken off; or just getting your fingers burnt. You get into trouble for what essentially you want to be a good thing but end up being in trouble.
MM: 4814 Ja, interesting
ME007: 4825  Why do people resist not bringing their friends from work into church? Why?
MM: 4829 It’s a puzzle, isn’t it. I’m supposed to try and solve it with this thesis! [laughter]. I’m not going to! But it’s exactly these issues that I’m interested in.
ME007: 4845  But I like the idea of a Willow Creek type of thing. Willow Creek, Saddleback kind of thing. Who are Churches…seeker sensitive, built on the premise that, their central mission is to make modern church goers into fully committed Christians. And that principle – if only that could be applied at local level. It’s a wish list. As to why? People’s fears? People’s embarrassment? Have they been invited and been turned down again and again and again? Maybe they have made invitations and their invitation has never been accepted? I don’t know….ja….no, they have people around for a braai, and they say, well, we have to see you all, and they say, I can’t come to church because I’ve got these people around for a braai, or OK I’ve got to kick these people out of my house so that I can go to church. [4958]. We must braai at church!
MM: 5008 Ja, very interesting. Question ten I’m trying to kind of turn things around: what sort of things do you consider that outsiders find the most persuasive? I mean, if you were to guess or put yourself into the shoes of someone who is an outsider to your church community but in contact with your people: what sort of evangelism would they find the most persuasive? And the opposite of that is what would they find the most repulsive?
ME007: 5036  I think the most repulsive thing would be judgemental thing of “You’re doing things wrong and we’re doing things right. So come and join us so that you can do things right.” Exactly what I was saying on Tuesday at our area meeting where people make these arrogant claims of “We hold all the truth; you hold no truth.” Rubbish Nobody holds all the truth. There may be an absolute there somewhere but God is even bigger than the absolute, you know, and we don’t have it. [5115]. But when people claim to have it, and say “We’ve got this, and you need it, so you must come to us.” I think people are put off by that, totally. There might be one or two people who are converted by that, who are bad drug dealers and murderers and rapists and that and who suddenly have the epic moment of conversion where they suddenly realise he consequences of their actions – you get that in prison ministry. But you’re not going to get it amongst the general population of people
MM: 5157 So what do people find themselves…
ME007: 5158  who consider themselves decent people. So then I think what people can relate to is when they see their need being addressed or they see a need in society they see that someone’s addressing. They’ll see the government who address an issue as being a government that’s legitimate, who’s something worth voting for, likewise with the church. You know if they see “O, you run a centre for pregnant women in crisis? That’s interesting. You know, And so people have sponsored that who are not necessarily church goers. They’ve adopted a child through our system and they still continue to sponsor that ministry. [5301]. As a result. So if that was to close down those people would miss it. So I think that addressing a need in society, people can see that happening. And a need within themselves. Ja…why do people come to church in the first place? Ja, you know, it’s not to sing ancient songs. ..to unsingable tunes. Surely not these days you know…Some might have some sentimental connection to it, but the general person in the public? They’ve got better things to do on a Sunday than to go and sing ancient songs to unsingable tunes [5400] and listening to some guy rattling off about what he thinks is a better way of living than their own way. Helping people cope with life…helping people … not just cope but actually live life to the full.  More than just cope and just survive life – rather live life. I would say would be the…and then of course, just having the place, a venue that’s user friendly
MM: 5439 Now John Wesley said people flocked to his…he was the centre of a huge swathe of conversion. What made him so successful? Why was he so popular? 
ME007: 5501  I think the religious establishment had become dry and stale and institutionalised and being in that situation of  “Well, we’re right and you’re wrong…do things our way or no way”. I mean, John Wesley was not accepted in the church, after all.  
MM: 5530 So you could say the church was saying “My way or the highway”?
ME007: 5532  Ja. And they weren’t speaking a word of grace. Just thinking in my research in terms of policing and crime and all that, one of the books I read was on the use of torture in punishment – and it was implemented by the church! Golly! Now you must see some of the torturous methods they provided – it was horrific! And it was the church doing that stuff. They created like for a woman who was a gossip, for example, they created a steel helmet type of situation and clip her tongue to this, and she would have to walk around like that.  For being a gossip. Or, dunking: tying people to a chair and dunking them in the river. [5631]. Some people would drown, you know. All instituted by the church, which is supposed to be a place of grace, not a place of punishment in the name of justice
MM: 5650 A sort of anti-evangelism?
ME007: 5652  Yes. And so they were trying to convert people with the sword, with the harsh stuff. And John Wesley, in my mind, was saying an alternative message…..That’s why people were attracted to Jesus rather than to the religious establishment. All the sinners were being attracted to Jesus. They weren’t getting rescued in the religious establishment. And history repeats itself. I think the same history is repeating itself today.  
MM: 5733 OK, I hear you. Thank you. Now, last question – I’ve been enjoying this very much. Is there any budget allocated for such people and concerns, the concerns of people who are not members of the church, particularly thinking in terms of evangelism. 
ME007: 5800  Yes and no. We do tithe out of the money that we get in. We tithe, and also we provide the accommodation for the New Life Centre and the old age home, Alpha.  So there are those costs which we get up to which form part of our budget, but…and we make special collections for certain things for our mission and extension fund. We make a special collection. This year it was for the Namaqualand heritage fund, a special collection for that, special collections for old age homes, special collections for school uniforms, etc., etc., you know. You’d say when you look at our budget…the problem is when you’ve got your assessments – which is paying for your ministers, essentially, and salaries for lay staff, [5900], and your water and lights, there’s unfortunately there’s nothing left. So those kinds of set expenses form 99% of the budget, and it should actually be the other way round. Unfortunately that’s the frustration of budget. 
MM: 5925 OK let’s finish off with a fantasy question. Some rich old person gives you R10,000.00 and says to you, “You’ve got to spend this on evangelism my boy!” What would you like to spend that R10,000 on? Just off the top of your head
ME007: 5945  R10,000 doesn’t actually go very far these days…make it R100,000 and we might be able to 
MM: 5958 OK let’s give you R100,000.
ME007: 10003  A bequest or something for evangelism…I guess we would start with an analysis of what is the predominant need in the area, namely the homeless, drug addicts. I mean there is a major court in our area 
MM: 10018 How would you spend money on that?
ME007: 10025  ….I think we would try and work in partnership with what is already happening, and say how do people equip themselves to get on their own feet ultimately, because you don’t want to just throw money into something that is going to deplete. You want to throw money into something that is going to generate its own life. So for example if you were going to train people in the skills of farming for themselves you’d buy them the initial seeds and you’d send them on a course on agriculture to then go and then implement in their lives and you’d give them some seeds to get started sort of thing. Or in terms of computer illiteracy, it’s one of the things we do at the new life centre – give people [10125] the training: how do you work a computer, or [word indistinct] or whatever, give them a legitimate certificate, so maybe work in partnership with a business school as a legitimate accreditation so that that person can actually implement that. And maybe replenish the money that they once benefited from. So meet needs of people …probably more than doing courses. I don’t think that going out and crusading, spending the money on pamphlets and doing door-to-door house drops in their letter boxes about this church that is…I don’t think that that is going to work. I would love to see how people can be trained to evangelise at work. But also meeting needs and the spinoff, one would hope, would be that those people would be drawn into the life of the church. But my experience is unfortunately is that it hasn’t. 
MM: 10258 OK…So you’d struggle to spend this R10,000? 
ME007: 10307  Ja…I would hope that it would be invested in something that becomes self-sustainable rather than just throwing money into something that you know into making a leaflet that 90% of it is actually going to be thrown away into the paper re-cycling bin. Something more constructive than that. Maybe making a thing of feeding the hungry, for example, and proclaiming the Gospel message at that feeding opportunity, saying “We’re doing this because Jesus fed the five thousand”
MM: 00 OK…well, Brian, thank you very much for your time, your energy, and for your work in serving the kingdom
7223 words
2017-03-06 MX008
Age 37
MZ008 church 1 Methodist
MM: 00.00 OK…it’s the sixth of March 2017 and I am speaking to the reverend MX008 in the Mugg ‘n Bean, MX008 suburb 2. Can you tell me about any evangelism that happens in the church that you are involved in, or involves your congregation members in any way? 
MX008: 0050 My church is situated in a suburban area, in the MX008 suburb 1 circuit which is mostly limit the evangelism, because we use the YMG in the street revivals, which the laws are governing the city don’t allow us to go to the streets and evangelise. So we only do that through the door-to-door, or again, in the area which we are, you can’t just march in any time. So we are very limited.  
MM: 0135 You’ve already started telling me about the YMG and doing door-to-door…any other stories about ways in which people do do evangelism? 
MX008: 0039 It’s through campaigns where we said to people, in a particular season or month, we say “Bring one member to the church.” So that’s the only way that seems to be working for now. Where people will go and look for someone, and convert – not even convert – just guide to the church, and then there will be people 
MM: 0207 Someone who is open to coming along at the invitation of a friend or relative? 
MX008: 0210 Yes. They decide to join the church or to come and listen to Jesus’ word
MM: 0217 That’s my second question: I’d like to ask you about people who have decided to give their lives to Jesus – I think that’s the word you used – or “joined the church”. Tell me some stories about people who’ve experienced conversion in your church. You know, what have they converted from, what’s been the process, what’s happened. Give me some idea of what it’s like in your church 
MX008: 0204 You know, it’s quite difficult to say that people have been converted. Because most of the people, especially in the black context, they just sit and ask for a class meeting to be there, or ask for a class leader. So you are not sure whether just want to belong to the church or whether that person has just been converted. There are a few instances when the people, when the preacher has preached, will come forward and say “I have heard Jesus speaking, or God speaking to me today.” Or “I want to give my life to Jesus”. So there is where to hear people say that, but mostly you will hear people who want to belong to the church”.[0339]. So always we interpret that as conversion.  
MM: 0346 Well that’s fair enough. Some of the reading I’ve been looking at says that conversion is what the church says it is. [laughter] And those who’ve experienced some sort of conversion or joined the church. Is there any change involved? Do you see any changes in behaviour or other changes
MX008: 0408 Ja…some do change, some just the normal people – I mean those who are there in the church for a long time. The difficulty we are facing in the church is that people are not living their faith. Faith is just a set of rules, but in terms of life…
MM: 0435 We’ll get on to that – it’ll come up in later questions. But that’s just very helpful. Because this is material that I can’t get for myself. I can’t know this without you letting me know it. OK, in the last five years would you estimate that your congregation has grown – this is question 3 - staid more or less the same, or has shrunk in numbers?
MX008: 0458 I think it has grown – especially young people – because it’s full of young people especially those young professionals who emerged from the universities. They are now starting to work and now they joined that church. 
MM: 0520 What do you attribute that to? Because that’s against the trend of some other churches 
MX008: 0526 I attribute it to the numbers who have been growing
MM: 0535 Why do you think young professionals are choosing your church?  
MX008: 0538 It’s the connection of the church with the university
MM: 0540 How does it connect? 
MX008: 0541 The Methsoc, which is the Methodist organisation at [name of institution withheld] and [name of institution withheld] – they normally worship in MZ008 church 1. When they’ve got jobs they continue worshipping at MZ008 church 1 because it’s been their home during their student days. 
MM: 0610 Do people from other denominations join your church, or is it Methodists who join your church? 
MX008: 0613 Mostly it’s Methodist who join the church
MM: 0621 Any different language or culture groups? Do you get Congolese Methodists or… 
MX008: 0625 We have a few guys from central Africa, then we have got Sothos, we’ve got Zulus. Who have got [indistinct word]
MM: 0638 Majority language? 
MX008: 0639 isiXHosa
MM: 0642 OK. People who leave your church: normally there’s a dilemma with people coming in and people leaving…What takes people out of your church? What sort of social or emotional reasons take away from the church when they leave 
MX008: 0708 The more normal is when they relocate. They are young people, young professionals, so they change jobs. That’s the highest number, and the other to the change of work is that they buy houses around Cape Town and they will choose to worship closer to their homes. 
MM: 0731 That makes a lot of sense, yeah. Do you have some people who still consider themselves as members, they maybe live close by, but they hardly ever attend. They attend maybe once a year and you still count them as members. Or don’t you have many like that?  
MX008: 0753 We do have. We call them adherents. 
MM: 0759 OK…what makes an adherent an adherent? 
MX008: 0803 Adherents are those people who claim their roots to be Methodist, but they’re not members. And they come occasionally, maybe for Covenant Services. Then you will see them during Easter…then you will see them next year, or Christmas service. Then you will see them, at an official event. So this people they don’t have membership in terms of class meetings and stuff. 
MM: 0836 OK, thank you. Question four: I think we’ve more or less covered it: describe your congregation in terms of languages, culture mix and socio-economic factors – anything else to say about that? 
MX008: 0850 My congregation is an integrated congregation. They have got both and English services, whites and coloureds and blacks, and so there is the mixture of vernacular languages, Sotho, Tswana and Xhosa. It’s a mixture of everything.  
MM: 0914 Do you get any Afrikaans speaking people? 
MX008: 0916 There is a lot, but don’t normally use Afrikaans in our places – it’s English and Xhosa and Sotho mostly
MM: 0932 OK, then moving on to thinking about evangelism: question five: do you teach people about evangelism, and if so, what aspects of evangelism do you emphasise?  
MX008: 0946 We don’t normally teach…we don’t have a specific syllabus. 
MM: 0943 I’m just thinking of your overall pastoral teaching
MX008: 1000 No, we do. We always encourage people…to be disciples who are making disciples – in other words to use every opportunity to share Christ with those people. But the problem is in the interpretation of evangelism. People always want to preach as a form of evangelism, and I always want to tell them, evangelism is not about preaching, it’s about sharing the Gospel. So sharing the Gospel is not about preaching deep sermons, but it is just to share the experience of Christ in your life and let everything to God
MM: 1044 You used the concept “making disciples” – does that relate? In what ways does that relate?
MX008: 1045 Repeat your question?
MM: 1054 In what ways does this sort of demonstration, evangelism by explanation, relate to discipleship? 
MX008: 1106 Discipleship is about making disciples. When you are made a disciple, you are made a disciple so that you can make other disciples. So you can imagine that when you are made a disciple you share your experience of Christ to those who are far away from Christ. 
MM: 1122 So that concept of “the experience of Christ” is important in this whole process…
MX008: 1128 Yes
MM: 1134 Sorry, I mustn’t think – I must just ask. I mean, this is seriously very interesting material. Now this discipling evangelism, are some members of your congregation more involved in it than others? Do some sort of hold back from it, and others very keen on it?  
MX008: 1203 People have not yet grasped the whole idea of disciples making disciples. It’s something that you still have to teach more about. But we don’t need a pulpit. People want pulpit. In order to make disciples we teach people to make the most of every opportunity, even in the coffee shop, even on the bus, even in an air flight or even when you are jogging – that’s an opportunity for evangelism. 
MM: 1233 I’m with you one hundred percent. So would you say that at the moment evangelism isn’t really popular? 
MX008: 1248 It’s not something we’ve invested our time
MM: 1254 What do you think would persuade people to spend time in it? 
MX008: 1258 It’s to teach, maybe have a syllabus on evangelism. Like we do with confirmation class. And I think that confirmation class, which is the entry of the people in the church, should include some form of teaching them when they are made disciples…how it is their responsibility also to make other disciples.  
MM: 1340 That’s very interesting…so you suggest that it should be part of… 
MX008: 1343 It should be part of the formal syllabus of the…. So that on their entry point they enter knowing that part of their responsibility when they accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour is to invite their lives, those who are still far away from. Because those who are already in, they’ve already got their own understanding of evangelism. They understand about evangelism, when you speak about evangelism they always think about amadodana taking the street revival. They don’t think about sharing the word of Christ with anyone, anywhere.  
MM: 1440 You talk about the amadodana…do the ladies have any 
MX008: 1443 Yes, that’s a problem. Because when you talk about evangelism, ladies – they don’t think it’s their responsibility. 
MM: 1450 This is gold! Tell me … 
MX008: 1453 They always think that only the amadodana now has to do the evangelism. That’s why I’m saying now, evangelism is an every member thing.. 
MM: 1511 I’m hearing you, I’m hearing you.  Now, does your church take responsibility for situations in the world that are not directly related to your church life? Are there any things or issues around you that your church takes responsibility for? They aren’t Methodist issues, but
MX008: 1531 The world outside…yes, at MZ008 church 1 they’ve got a home for young girls who are pregnant, who doesn’t have a place to stay. Some are running away from homes, some have been street children. So we help them for the period of pregnancy for comfort and adoption. 
MM: 1603 How many young women do you have in at a time?  
MX008: 1606 Yoh…mostly we’ve got nine beds, and they are always full. So for the year I think we always take more than a hundred. The babies…what happens is that those who come, most of them, take decision of giving them for adoption. So when they come we journey with them, doctors, psychologists, and then when they give birth, and we part ways with them. We train them so that when they go back to the community they can have something – like a B&B and guest house worker. Then some we link up with their families.  
MM: 1705 Yes, it’s a complex social issue, isn’t it. Any other connection? I mean that’s brilliant, and it’s real
MX008: 1715 Others is a outreach programmes at a particular need and a particular time, like tracksuits for those kids in MX008 suburb 1 South. also Ja it’s always education related, like school uniform for the Marsh Memorial Home and Heatherdale. And also every first Wednesday of the month we give out boerewors rolls at the people who live in the E Park in MX008 suburb 1.
MM: 1757 Is there anything that you remember from John Wesley’s life and ministry that you sometimes use to illustrate your teaching on evangelism 
MX008: 1806 We always speak about the famous phrase of John Wesley about “the world is my parish”. The fact that we need….
MM: 1818 It was very significant for him, wasn’t it 
MX008: 1821 Yes, it was significant for him because he didn’t confine himself in the church – he will go to open space when he was denied a pulpit in the church, he will his father grave…so, every place is a pulpit
MM: 1845 Yep, you’ve got to admire the man – my goodness…. Circling back to conversion, we’ve looked at conversion, but this is a more theoretical question. What are the most important issues involved in conversion? What would you like to see, or what do you think takes place when someone is converted? 
MX008: 1918 When someone is converted the first one is the one we spoke about, the change; and the second one is the total dependence on Christ as the Lord and Saviour. And also, ja, the most one is the change of behaviour. 
MM: 1940 What sort of changes of behaviour do you see? 
MX008: 1941 I am sure when you are converted you had your own ways, your own doing of things which were just taking another direction. So when you are converted you need to seek the ways of Christ: in terms of love; in terms of embracing the other people; in terms of being a peaceful person – all sorts of those things. That’s what is needed to become a better person. 
MM: 2023 Ja…I’ve got a lot of kick-back on this question. Do you think that some people are more converted than others?  
MX008: 2025 [laughter and long pause]…I think some are more converted than others.
MM: 2039 Why would you say that? 
MX008: 2041 It’s the change. Some people have been converted, really converted. And some have been converted on their own interpretation of conversion. So we are not, I don’t believe we are in the same level of conversion. That’s why I am saying some are more converted than others  
MM: 2116 And again, is there any way in which Wesley’s emphases relate to conversion?  
MX008: 2125 [long pause]…You know what…except his own conversion. His description of his own conversion 
MM: 2130 Tell me 
MX008: 2131 That…one of the emphases that he emphasized was is that through his conversion he was assured of the sins – that they have been forgiven. So in conversion is the assurance of the forgiveness of sins is the key. 
MM: 2156 It’s fascinating. Now I’m reading in Wesley and all the literature, but actually where this stuff is happening is where you are, in MZ008 church 1 Methodist….OK…question nine. Heading towards the end. If you think of all the languages and cultures there are, and all the types of people and needs in Cape Town - well, in the world – which of these people are members of your church evangelising, and which would you like them to evangelise?
MX008: 2236 Repeat the question?
MM: 2240 It’s a complicated one! If you think of Hout Bay to Somerset West and Mitchell’s Plain to Malmesbury and Simonstown to Stellenbosch…where’s the place… is there a niche in which you function or do you have no boundaries at all?  
MX008: 2302 No, we don’t have any boundaries. We don’t have any boundaries tof our evangelism. We evangelise to everyone. But .… to be honest in the practical way of doing things…
MM: 2316 Right, so no theoretical boundaries 
MX008: 2319 but when you go to practical way of doing things – if you go to eleven o’clock services, it’s a mixture of many languages, but the denomination is Xhosa. So you might think that our focus is in isiXhosa speaking people. But [indistinct word] is to evangelise everybody. But if you go to the half past nine, it’s a white church. As I said to you we use English, but there are Afrikaans speaking people who are there.
MM: 2354 Do you find people from other African countries come to that service because they relate more to English? Because we find that at Claremont Methodist 
MX008: 2401 It’s .. it’s really becoming a mixture now. It’s not pure white. Things are changing. There are dark patches here and there. 
MM: 2420 Hallelujah. What can you think of John Wesley’s thought that is relevant to your local church in its local context? 
MX008: 2427 Come again?
MM: 2434 Does what John Wesley taught or demonstrated have any relevance to this? I think you’ve already talked about “the world being my parish”. Anything else?
MX008: 2441 I think that’s all. And also the factor of social holiness – that there is no religion except social religion, and there is no holiness except social holiness. In other words, that it’s not all about us, but also about the society where we live. It’s very important because it tells us that the church is not only for its own members. But it’s for those who are not members. For society, how we relate and have impact in society is very important in terms of the evangelism. 
MM: 2525 Question ten is, what sort of evangelism do you consider outsiders find most persuasive? If you were to imagine people outside the church, what would they find the most persuasive in terms of evangelism? That’s a very wide open question. 
MX008: 2547 You see I think in these days we have polluted evangelism by what we call outreach. 
MM: 2602 I like how you say “we’ve polluted evangelism” – that’s a quotable quote! 
MX008: 2605 We have sort of took a bait for people to come to Christ. Where we use lots of…what do you call…the outreach, where we take groceries and stuff. So people normally look for that, not about looking to see if this is the right church.
MM: 2637 So who brings the best grocery bag, you join that church? 
MX008: 2642 Really. I’m telling you! If you go to the informal settlements where we normally evangelise, those people are always looking for that. So I think we have polluted evangelism. To always call people to Christ and promise many things, except Christ. I think we need to stick to Christ. Not that we must not bring those groceries and stuff, but the first must be Christ. Which is all for all.
MM: 2743 I hear you, ja. Is there anything that people find objectionable or offensive about the way we do evangelism? That’s the sort of flip side of the coin.
MX008: 2757 I don’t think so. I don’t think they find it objective. “objective” is?
MM: 2800 “Objectionable” – sort of “something they don’t like” 
MX008: 2803 I don’t think there’s anything they don’t like. No, I don’t think there is anything that they don’t like
MM: 2817 OK…that’s painting a very interesting picture, because sometimes people react to me as though they don’t like what I’ve got to say about Jesus. My sort of people
MX008: 2824 It’s because you know it’s because most of people, maybe, you will go to someone who does not want to hear about Jesus, not because that person does not want to hear about Jesus but there is a factor at that particular time. And like that person is used to people who will bring groceries. Then they will want to speak about Jesus. Then they come, they hand it. When you come, they will not be interested in this white mlungu who wants to speak about Jesus.  
MM: 2900 I’m learning stuff here 
MX008: 2902 That’s why I said, earlier on, that we have polluted, some of us we have polluted 
MM: 2910 Now John Wesley was a really successful evangelist. What made him so successful, do you think?  
MX008: 2918 I think John Wesley was able to use the church and to bring people to faith in Christ. And when they have faith in Christ, then he will look after them. 
MM: 2938 And how did he look after them? 
MX008: 2939 I think he normally preached, evangelised in areas of poor. And he will…and that’s why I’m saying, it’s Christ first, and then you look after the people. But you don’t look after the people then you bring Christ
MM: 2959 So he got the process right? He got the order right?
MX008: 3001 Ja. He will preach faith and salvation, he will demonstrate the salvation by giving to the poor. And the church at that time would really be involved in community and helping people’s needs. That’s why he was…he would be found in areas where the people were. Now the church today meet every time alone, and there’s few times when we go out.  
MM: 3044 Another quotable quote! 
MX008: 3045 Ja, I think the best way of John Wesley was to be identified with the poor. So the church today is very difficult for people to identify themselves ….long technical pause as tables change] So he was able to be identified with the people. But today it’s very difficult…the poor…it’s very difficult for them  to identify with us in the church. It’s more difficult for us to go and evangelise to them because somehow there/s a disconnect. The way we are…the way we were…there is a lot… money involved and all those sort of things
MM: 3226 Ja, it’s very difficult. Last question: at MZ008 church 1 Methodist is there any budget allocation for the concerns of people who do not belong to the church?  
MX008: 3239 Yes, we have what we call the poor fund. Poor fund is that money that is budgeted, to help people who are not our members. But…you’ll find that the poor fund is also poor itself
MM: 3258  Another quotable quote!
MX008: 3300 So it makes for people to be taught – because when you come and give, because we only collect poor fund once a month when we’ve got a communion service. Most people, I’m sorry to say this, but most people from my black context they don’t really understand. You will see that most out of them they will bring one rand, two rand…I don’t know who taught us to give to the poor fund our one rand, when it is – for instance now it is sitting at R22,000, and with many challenges that are surrounding MZ008 church 1, what can you do with R22,000 for the whole year. So there is money that is allocated for that but for me we have not yet made our effort that that fund can be effective. 
MM: 3408 Is there a budget allocation besides the poor fund? Is there some sort of allocation for evangelism?
MX008: 3411 No. No we don’t. No, there is no money allocated for evangelism. Only the poor fund which is for helping people who are poor
MM: 3430 Which is good –it is very important to intentionally, methodically help people. OK. So here’s a fantasy question. Someone, some rich donor, gives you R10,000 and says, “Please use this on an evangelistic project”. Just imagine. What would you like your church to do with that R10,000? 
MX008: 3456 [laughter & long pause]. Joh…I won’t lie – I don’t know. I don’t know, because…I wouldn’t say we will go around when people are not trained. All what I can maybe do with it is to organise some sort of training on evangelism. And then it will be determined by that what are we going to do. But I think for now, what we need in MZ008 church 1 is to be trained for evangelism. Especially in the context where we are.  
MM: 3549 What sort of training would you like to see?
MX008: 3554 Training on the understanding of evangelism itself, what is evangelism itself? Are we still on revival or is it sharing Christ with other people. And in terms of the context where we are, in MZ008 church 1 and MX008 suburb 1, what ways of evangelism, what techniques of evangelism are fitting in that context. Because we can’t use revival which is a technique that can be used in Khayelitsha. Khayelitsha and MZ008 church 1 are two different…we are a suburban area…what techniques are suitable for a suburban area? 
MM: 3635 OK. Well that’s my questionnaire. I’m really very, very, very grateful to you for your answers…and I’m going to think about that and hopefully… 
4153 words
2017-03-08 MZ009
Age 34
MZ009 suburb 1 & MZ009 suburb 2 Methodist
MM: 00.00 I just want to ask the questions off the cuff – there’s no right or wrong answer here…this is not a theological examination. It’s me getting a feel of what is happening in the churches in these areas. OK…well the date is the eighth of March 2017 and I am in the Vida coffee shop with the Reverend MX008, who has agreed to answer some questions and give me some reflections on life and ministry. Thank you very much. ……[administrative explanation and filling in forms] … Reverend MX008, could you tell me about …..any evangelism that happens in your church or involves your members in any way?
MZ009:0225  I think currently, in my two societies, there’s been a slightly change, in terms of the reshuffle. So the focus is now different to what I have been doing in MZ009 suburb 1 at MZ009 suburb 3. So now since I moved to MZ009 suburb 1 and MZ009 suburb 2  
MM: 0243 It’s an interesting match-up, isn’t it 
MZ009: 0245  It is. Because it is two different contexts. Two different congregations altogether
MM: 0256 This is the MZ009 suburb 4 is it? Or MZ009 suburb 3? 
MZ009: 0258  MZ009 suburb 4…I think in terms of mission in MZ009 suburb 1, there is little that is happening, because of the age-group of the congregants. And those who are still able to move around mostly they are always busy working. But with the old ladies what we will do is soup and then sandwiches, which is something that is easy for them to do 
MM: 0333 So do you distribute sandwiches for them or do they distribute to other people? 
MZ009: 0335  To other people. Just for the street ministries and the shelters. So mostly I would understand mission as reaching out to the community and those around us. So I think that that is all that we have been able to do so far with of course an intention of being an open church that is accessible to all who come and pass – because it’s by the road, so everybody would always come and seek for something to eat, you know, so we make sure that we always have, out of our poor fund, that we always have a cupboard full of something to eat, and we do it for a church in the society.
MM: 0425 MZ009 suburb 2? 
MZ009:  0427 MZ009 suburb 2 is completely different community [laughter] I’m also still trying to find my feet at MZ009 suburb 2, because this is my third month – I started in January, February…I am trying to understand the dynamics of certain things that will enable us …because we know the reality of gang violence and the state of  bold[?]  if that’s the right word in the affordability to buy number of things…so the change of things, what we have just tried to establish now …yesterday I had a team of the peoples who are the missionaries, the mission group 
MM: 0517 OK…what do they do? 
MZ009:  0519 What is that they go into each and every one’s home 
MM: 0524 So they go door to door?
MZ009: 0526  Yes, door to door kind of ministry
MM: 0529 Is this to Methodist families or to everybody? 
MZ009: 0530  That’s what I was trying to check with them, because MZ009 suburb 2 is more charismatic communities that…so there would be things they would do – you could tell them from their way of worship. I don’t want to assume and say we only go to every family. But that was my intention going there. In this conversation we say if we are doing mission, mission is not about us doing what is within our jobs, but we need to go in each and every house. So, so far, what has been happening is door to door kind of evangelism. Trying to pray with people, offer [indistinct] of counselling. So I’m hoping that next week they will be able to take me along 
MM: 0631 I was doing door to door once, and knocked on the door and the woman said, “I can’t talk with you, I’m sick”; so I said “Can I pray with you?” She says “I’m not that sick” and she slams the door [laughter]….So you’ve painted a picture of what evangelism looks like in your two communities
MZ009: 0707  I think so. To the great extent there’s a reality of gang violence, so another group of names we were talking about how do we reach out, because some of them they know the boys who are responsible of such work. But we also aware there is a “king pin”, those who are top and we will try to organise a meeting to speak with them
MM: 0730 Ja, it’s a power structure, isn’t it 
MZ009:  0734 It is, because those who do the dirty job they are not in charge, most of the time. And there is the one that is ordering the hit all the time; so what we are trying to do is to reach out to that because stray bullets, killing people, it’s terrible. And the reality is that we partly involved as the church. We are affected because some of those kids, their parents are in the church. So we are trying to say “Please! How can we best help as the church?”…trying to reach out. So I think that there is quite a lot of work that needs to be done on that side 
MM: 0826 Now, I’m interested in evangelism…I’m also interested in this concept of conversion, of people changing. Are there people in your congregations at MZ009 suburb 1 and at MZ009 suburb 2 that have experienced conversion? What have they converted from? Are there any changes? What’s involved in this conversion process? 
MZ009:  0853 Ja, I think from MZ009 suburb 1 side point of view, conversion has happened in terms of belief that God has power to heal. And yet they did not believe. I am relating to the story of one lady that I spoke to that was … no, her parents died of cancer, and she was diagnosed with cancer, so doesn’t believe. Because her brother grew up with going to injection for chemo all her life, so if God was there he would have protected her.  God could bring this on end so that she suffer. And then interesting enough, that it is only through coming to church – not regularly – that one day she got a message that spoke to her heart and she was converted [1002]. God does these things. Whatever happens, God still controls. That was her story. That was very interesting. So I think in that side and that of…because I think that that community has now become more and more Muslim community, so there’s a lot of them that will come in and says I’ve changed my religion – I’ve just decided to come…to move to Christianity 
MM: 1035 So you get people moving from Islam to Christianity? 
MZ009: 1037  You do and they will tell you that they will sit in one room in one house and those Muslims will not reject them, they will be able receive them as they are –so that’s what they believe? OK, fine So that was quite an interesting conversation also. But that’s on side of MZ009 suburb 1. But looking to MZ009 suburb 2, I think the conversion part comes mostly as a result of being a victim, if that’s the right word, of violence to be in society that one could be partly involved or getting involved in that part, of contributing towards the violence. Of buying what is stolen. And by doing and participating in the violence that is taking place. So [1146] those will tell you, “No, I was part of the gang, and I got shot – so I decided from that no, never again. And then I focus to the church.” So it’s those stories, I would take that in my own view, as the point of conversion from a certain lifestyle to a new lifestyle. 
MM: 1216 OK…now I know that you’re just new in the churches, newly assigned, but I also want to talk about membership. In the past five years has the church grown or shrunk? Have they stayed the same? What have they been like at the MZ009 suburb 1 church and the MZ009 suburb 2 church? 
MZ009: 1250  I don’t know really…at the MZ009 suburb 2 church they’ve growing in terms of number. But in terms of livelihood in the community nothing that seems to…
MM: 1308 Ja…there are differing ways of measuring growth, aren’t there.  
MZ009: 1314  And there’s another struggle when you come and do mission into such a community. First you need to think carefully of how you…what’s your approach to such a community. You need to think carefully about your approach to evangelism in such a community. You want to talk about a certain thing and they say “Come and see what I’m struggling with”
MM: 1336 This is why I need to talk with you ministers – this isn’t theory any more it’s like… 
MZ009:  1342 No it isn’t. it isn’t. I think the reality that is in the… the growth in terms of numbers have changed. It’s there, but sometimes it’s difficult to measure that growth. Because of the reality of the [indistinct word] in each and every house. The membership will come back and say we’ve got a certain member of …and that goes back into the agenda of every Sunday in that is this really the membership that you say you have so what we have does not always reflect in what we have on Sundays
MM: 1424 Yes, that’s one of the sort of issues we have. Do you have members who consider themselves to be members but then they don’t come very often?  
MZ009: 1433  We do We have them on paper, but what have been observed in my just few years in this circuit is that there are stages of people coming into church. One has just got married and comes to church, obviously because they want to get married…and then they disappear. And then they get pregnant, and they begin to come back, because they want to baptise their child…and then they disappear. And then when they are to middle age their child needs to be confirmed….and then they come back. And then they disappear [laughter]. And then when they are at middle age and their lives now begin to stable…they stop moving around and all that. They slowly come back. But only to retire. And prepare to be, you know…[laughter]…So that is my observation, just the couple of years I’m here in this circuit [1600]. So that’s the interesting part – it becomes difficult to measure the membership. Because the membership, even in the book of order in our Methodist Church it states that you no longer take membership as a minister or as a church but a member when he on his own or she on their own takes off their membership 
MM: 1628 You’ve ceased to be anybody who puts money in the plate  
MZ009: 1631  You have “ceased to meet”, that is the word that they use now You are no longer suspended. You have ceased to meet by putting yourself into that position. And what you do then when that member comes back, and says “I now want to baptise my child”…I think that’s where the classes of baptism takes place and really helps one to find their steps back into the faith.  But I think [indistinct phrase] that in terms of number at MZ009 suburb 1, it is flat. At least a year, at most, you are able to confirm three people, and they are able to stay, those who are confirmed, because what I use is immediately on my confirmation classes I make the point that I don’t lose this group that I have confirmed. By giving them responsibilities. And they do, they come into the church because they have got something to do. So you don’t feel like you just worship and coming in. [1737]. And going out without knowing, because the majority of that church is old. So whenever young ones coming in you need to make use of them.    
MM: 1754 Yes, I’ve been preaching at that church since I was a twenty year old myself, off and on. OK, you said that 3 people were confirmed at MZ009 suburb 1, and MZ009 suburb 2…where do new people come from? Do they come from a Methodist background, or churches of another denomination, or through other language and culture groups…where are you drawing your new people from? 
MZ009:  1826 In kind of different places. Some come in for work, 
MM: 1831 OK…so they transfer close by 
MZ009: 1832  Close by – so they join the closest church…so they’re on a journey. But there are those who have been into another church out there, relocated, and so they come with a different idea of the church, or they have not been regular members of their church…so they want to be regular in our church. Then we have to confirm them. But in terms of MZ009 suburb 2, I have not confirmed anyone, because this is just my first year. 
MM: 1914 OK. So now can you describe – this is question four – can you describe your church in terms of languages, culture mix, socio-economic factors? 
MZ009:  1929 MZ009 suburb 1 is predominantly English, even the coloureds who are worshipping there. They’re English speakers, because they take great exception when you come and speak Afrikaans [laughter]
MM: 1943 Moenie Afrikaans daar praat nie! [laughter]
MZ009:   No, no, I’m not. You speak those few words if you come with deep Afrikaans [indistinct phrase]
MM: 1956 I better get you something easier to eat with
MZ009: 1959  OK, thankyou….
MM: 2022 OK…socio-economic, language, culture mix? 
MZ009: 2024  In terms of MZ009 suburb 1 it is English, as opposed to MZ009 suburb 2, which is totally Afrikaans
MM: 2038 Yes…I’ve tried to preach in Afrikaans there, but it’s, but my Afrikaans is redelik sleg 
MZ009: 2050  Ja so in terms of the culture, it’s... in MZ009 suburb 1 it’s mixed there’s coloureds sometimes and then you get the whites, so [indistinct] learn the other language, but I think it is predominantly English
MM: 2110 Anyone from elsewhere in the continent coming in? 
MZ009: 2114  We had a lady from Zimbabwe, who was coming to worship with…I have not seen her 
MM: 2125 Ja, I preached there the Sunday before last, and I don’t think she was there.
MZ009: 2134  No. She wasn’t. So…there’s not much of that. But in terms of culture, we have just confirmed the one lady, she’s a Xhosa lady 
MM: 2145 At MZ009 suburb 2 or at MZ009 suburb 1? 
MZ009:  2146 MZ009 suburb 1
MM: 2148 That’s an interesting – why did she join there –why do you think?
MZ009: 2155  I think maybe she stays close by, just MZ009 suburb 1. But her mum also comes – but she worships at MZ009 suburb 3, and they stay together – so I don’t know what interested her. But in MZ009 suburb 2…but let me finish the economy of MZ009 suburb 1. I think it’s a pensioners’ congregation. It’s mostly pensioners who are there. The new ones that are working they would not be able to come, to come to church, or if they do come they do alternate, some this Sunday, some that 
MM: 2251 OK. If you were giving advice to a preacher, someone who was coming to preach at MZ009 suburb 2 or MZ009 suburb 1 for the first time, what would you like them to know before they came, what advice would you give them before they came, in terms of relating to the people?  
MZ009: 2305  I think at MZ009 suburb 1 the important one that I’d say is “You’d better raise your voice” [laughter]  
MM: 2315 Speak up, young man! 
MZ009: 2316  Because the old ladies won’t be able to hear you! And also just to understand the age group of the people that you are preaching to. Because that is very important too. You have to learn and understand that this is certain group of people, and when I’m talking about issues of struggles and economic justice and whatnot that you have to give hope to the black community and all that you need to know that really the old years are good thing but the reality is that they’re not going to do anything. So you have to speak on something that will be able to give motivation, that their children, their grandchildren, so they will know what are the struggles of today. We will equip them, and they go and equip…
MM: 2414 Ja, sort of age appropriate discipleship 
MZ009: 2416  Absolutely. Because the reality is in the communities differs from each other. In MZ009 suburb 2 the young people come to church. MZ009 suburb 1 they don’t come to church. Until a certain age group. And then they disappear. So for us to be able to reach out to them we only reach out to them through grannies. We are telling the stories to them and then they are telling the stories to the children. 
MM: 2458 Yup, I hear this….Question five: Do you teach people about evangelism, and if so, what aspects of evangelism do you emphasize?  
MZ009: 2500  I think we do teach, but …
MM: 2505 This is generally, as well as particularly 
MZ009:  2507 I think my teaching on evangelism only take place in my Bible study group. With the reality that we have got different religion in our community
MM: 2525 OK…what different religions do you have? 
MZ009:  2526 Muslim mostly, at MZ009 suburb 1, it’s become Muslim. That we don’t impose what we have…and we [indistinct word] with them what they have and we try to bridge the gap. And one of the motivation that I have come, when I was in the States last year… I was in New York, we travelled to Sutherland, Texas, Miami and Orlando [laughs].  I was there that side at a number of places. But when we got into New York what was interesting was that the way of evangelism which I took then from [indistinct word], an encouragement talking to the congregation, was evangelism and missions is not about me and you [2627] on the property and worshipping, and about the souls that comes forward, but then that which we do. … What happens there is that there is that Indian, Muslim and Christian, they worship in one building. It’s a Methodist building. So they all use one property. It says to me that it’s not about the property – that we in my country, it is something that is of very importance
MM: 2714 That’s very interesting 
MZ009: 2720  So my teachings around that is that we need to be a church to all. And we evangelise and reach out by all means that we can. So that you all can get all that you can [laughter]. 
MM: 2738 So if you were to put that into a sermon, what text would you choose? 
MZ009: 2743  That one…I’d take the Great Commission, Matthew 28: “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations. I mean, because that’s a call that we are all called to do. Is to do and make all the disciples
MM: 2806 Do you know some stories from John Wesley’s life that you could illustrate that with?.... because that’s the other emphasis in my studies, which is looking at how John Wesley’s life relates to things and how much  
MZ009: 2828  I think that for me it is John Wesley’s three rules of life – that just captures my attention in terms of what mission and evangelism is all about …do good. Do no harm. And stay in love with God. So when you do all that that’s a mission statement that captures evangelism, mission work, and the life of the church itself. And that three rules are the three rules of life that can change the world. Which is the aim of evangelism and the preachers, which is to try and make the world a better place. 
MM: 2615 Continuing to think, going on to question six, are some members of your regular congregation more involved with evangelism (as you’ve defined it) than others? And if they are more involved, why are they more involved? This is one of those questions that can’t have a right or wrong answer, but it’s one that I’m puzzling with myself. 
MZ009:  2941 I think that they are involved. Most of them, in my observation, are involved because they have been exposed to the challenges of that particular ministry. So they have personal experience of what it means to care for those who are unable to do things on their own. And those who are sick of a particular disease those that are in their homes, they’ve experienced the stigma and rejection that it comes with, and they decide to say “You know what, I’m not going to let it lie, I’m going to live with dignity.” I think that’s been my observation and through the testimonies I have heard. 
MM: 3042 How popular is evangelism among members of your congregation? Would you say that it’s a minority interest or a majority interest? Are lots of people interested or only a few? Where does it lie
MZ009: 3054.  You know I think that it is the most interesting part of the church that most of people do not recognise because it is not always mostly emphasized in particular as an evangelism. That it is within the bounds of many things that are…so  we do not necessarily… go into it with our teaching. Like we have discussed, as a subject. But it forms part of many things that we do. 
MM: 3132 OK, I hear you. That is a very interesting insight. I need to speak to you guys [laughter]. OK…I think that you’ve already answered all of my sub-questions on six. Number seven, question seven is … I think you’ve answered this extensively already. Does your church take responsibility for situations in the world that are not directly related to your church life? I think you told me all about that. That is your definition of mission. But is there anything else you would like to add?
MZ009: 3210  I think that has been my struggle…just for example, one of the campaigns which we are having which directly or indirectly affects us as the church: #feesmustfall, #zumamustfall, all this Guptas and Zuptas, all these socio-economical challenges that face us, us as the church…because the church is not a building, I keep on saying that. It’s us, the people that comes to worship. Whatever happens to our community, our kids, it affects us because at the end of the day we are going to suffer as a result of what is happening in our country. I want to [indistinct phrase] always we be visible as the church, and ask the question, “Where is the church when kids are toyi-toying on the road?”  Where is the ministry, our calling? 
MM: 3312 Ja…I’ve been involved in the Peace & Justice work, and you can just see how important it is for Christians to be out there.  
MZ009: 3324  I’m in full support of whatever protests there are to fight for justice. We need to be there
MM: 3329 I was so impressed with you guys all going off to UWC in the middle of your conference. [laughter]. I was cheering you on
MZ009: 3340  We are not called for meetings. It’s part of what we eventually do, but it’s not the main focus. It takes a lot of unnecessary time away. 
MM: 3352 Any ways in which John Wesley’s teaching affects this or do you use illustrations from John Wesley’s life to teach about this…connection with wider society and the issues of wider society?
MZ009: 3413  I think he would…John Wesley he would make a call to … when he talks about holiness and relates to social holiness…When he talks about social holiness he says talking about something that once you’ve received it you cannot keep it to yourself. We have the illustration of the soldiers who brought the gospel of Christ in Africa, for those two guys who said, when they had received the Gospel “No, this is a precious thing that we have received so we can’t help it by keeping to ourselves – we need to voice it out”. Because for the holiness to be holy it needs to be social to reach all people…
MM: 3452 It makes sense to me 
MZ009: 3457  I that would be my way of summing it – that’s part of the evangelism
MM: 3515 ….In your opinion, what are the most important factors involved in conversion?  
MZ009: 3521  I think it’s…[pause]…the most important factors…I think it is the most important I think it is the transformation of heart, and then once the heart is transformed, as Wesley says, “I felt my heart strangely warmed”, and it is that experience that me and you are saying we are called, which is an experience that you cannot explain to another person which we are finding too hard. You can try and explain it to somebody else – it won’t make sense. …[inaudible interaction]…so you know what you felt.  So I think that once the heart receive that conversion, the mind and the action will just falls into place, because it all comes … it all start here.  
MM: 3616 Are there instances, though, where the mind doesn’t seem to be falling into place? Or the actions don’t seem to be following the heart? Do you find that ever? 
MZ009: 3623  I think it happens. I think that where nature would fight with that of the spirit, and it is in the wrestling. And when you are in that predicament you will need to find as they always say the one that you feed is the one that grows stronger 
MM: 3648 That’s right…two wolves… 
MZ009: 3650  Yes, the other wolves will each be aiming to defeat the other. We need to take care of that which, to know which is for me and my part of the spirituality.  
MM: 3715 What new information do people need in this conversion process? …[long pause]…you know, what’s the basic level things that people need to know…when we’re talking about conversion?
MZ009:  3732 I think that we just need to get frank with people…  that it does not happen overnight, that’s the real thought. That in most of us as a Christian the moment person comes in and confess God as the personal Lord and Saviour, we expect things to turn within a minute….and it does not happen like that. It is a process. It is a process that we need to be patient. Journey with me. Show me the right way. And then eventually I will know what is the rhythm, and where to put my foot for the next step, not to slip.  
MM: 3818 OK…so you’re saying that they need to understand that it’s a journey, not a quick fix. 
MZ009:  3821 No, it’s not a quick fix. And you need to understand, I normally say that you need to learn and understand me before you tell me what to do. Because sometimes I will misunderstand what you are saying because I don’t understand you. So we need to always understand each other 
MM: 3839 Would you say that some people are more converted than others? 
MZ009:  3841 That’s a reality. Mostly those that think they are more converted than others they will most of the time not want to hear another person’s view of things. Because the modernity of things that has kicked in has been the reality that what you have believed is your belief, and what is mine is mine. So don’t come and impose your beliefs into my belief. And then for you to be able to win me over, come and level with me, come and understand where I come from with my beliefs, because I am a person that is coming from KZN, Zulu community, it was  the culture that brought me, that nurtured me, that made me to be what I am 
MM: 3920 You must have had such a rough ride in the Cape! [laughter] 
MZ009:  3923 So if you want to understand who is this person that you are dealing with….a little bit of my background would help you. And then you would able to make sense of what you are saying to me, based on your beliefs, because I would have told you my belief, which has formulated the person that I am, so…that’s always my belief when you do evangelism and when you trying to win people over, don’t impose them and tell them how terrible they are. They know that I am not perfect. And as I’m sitting here I know that you are not perfect – so how can we be better together? 
MM: 4009 I hear you, I hear you! How does this understanding of the conversion process, how does it relate to John Wesley’s theological thinking about conversion? Is there anything there that you’ve… 
MZ009:  4022 I think John Wesley when he talks about the conversion, he would relate it to …. He would relate to it as the grace. He always talk about prevenient grace, grace that goes before us. And then by the time we get there the grace has done wonderful….and then he talks about sanctification, for us to be sanctified, for us to be set apart. A nice little illustration of sanctification, he says set apart as if you had never sinned. So when we are set apart as if we had never sinned we are given an assurance that no, even though I have sinned, by the grace of God I have been set apart as if I have never sinned. So then that justification by faith helps us to know that we still have a place   
MM: 4125 Now if you think of all the languages and cultures there are, and all the types of people and needs, which of these people is your church evangelising, and which would you like them to evangelise? Are there any people that you would like your church to evangelise but that they are not connecting with, or they are connecting with… in your two churches, who would you like them to connect with?
MZ009:  4158 I think I would like our church to be in a conversation or be involved with the gangs … I mean…You know, my wife works at the Red Cross, and she would keep on coming back she was operating a kid with a stray bullet here that cut all…that had cut all her intestines. You could see from her the sense of sadness…and the deep pain that which comes with…and one can relate: we’ve got two little girls. So we are not prone for such violence, because a stray bullet is not for you…a stray bullet is a stray bullet…So my heart sometimes comes draw back is go and find…it’s not an easy ministry to do because you putting your life at risk…but what I…sometimes one has to do it. For the change to take effect. What we not doing? [4303]. I think our church is focused on all itself. We are a church that is caring for our own thing, for our body, our life, and what we have inside. That all matters that we maintain ourselves, we live from hand to mouth, this is about what Bishop once use a rough word and says “a theology of masturbation” [laughter] [4324].   
MM: 4335 Which Bishop said that? Don’t worry, this is anonymous
MZ009: 4337  He said that in a public service. So I think that is his concern, his thinking about the church. And which we are also witnesses – it just satisfies itself. Because all that we do it is to make ourselves happy, and enjoy, and have conversions, and gather together and have praying and singing. All our gatherings have got something to eat as a Methodist. How much do we do that extending out into our community? I think that is the reality of what our churches   
MM: 4420 But do some people who attend church regularly need to be evangelised or not?  
MZ009:  4424 To a certain degree we do. ..for sometimes we get too comfortable…to come in and out without doing anything. Because the church is not a place to come and sit. We don’t need seat-warmers. We need people who are here because they have felt their heart strangely warmed so they want to warm other hearts somewhere. 
MM: 4456 If there is MZ009 suburb 1 Church and there is MZ009 suburb 2 church – are there any natural barriers beyond which the church won’t go? Or are there any limits on where the church evangelises…anything like that?
MZ009: 4515  Ja I think the reality the limitation is that of the violence. The people are scared for their life and property; they just don’t go away. Even if there is a revival there is no one that’s going to show up. It’s only the people of that particular area that do show up. Because the rest says, “No, I can’t put my life in danger, at risk of being shot or whatever the case is.” 
MM: 4543 Could you see someone from MZ009 suburb 2 evangelising the people in Constantia? 
MZ009:  4546 I think that is possible. Because of …the reality of what we see…it would be a long shot. But it is possible. Because there are people…most of the people who would move from one area is that one who is able to develop their life and then buy a house in that community. And then they still able to go back and worship in that you know and live in that other so-called better area. So in that sense you still able to have a link to the so-called better community than they are. Because there is a relation that they…that is going on…and in that sense  
MM: 4651 What sort of evangelism do you consider that outsiders find the most persuasive? Somebody that’s not involved in church, not involved in Methodism – what do they find the most persuasive about the Christian message? 
MZ009: 4708  I mean, the common one in my observation is you know, when you preach, people who always want to hear that God loves them. And that is what most people would love to hear. No matter how sinful I will be but God still loves me. So that is what most people would love to hear. 
MM: 4734 I agree with you – I think that’s very persuasive. It’s not what other religions teach
MZ009:  4739 Ja…and the grace of God is sufficient for all. And then there’s those words that most people want to hear in terms of opposition in relation to…
MM: 4756 On the flip side of that, what do people find most sort of off-putting….what upsets people about evangelism? What drives them away?  
MZ009: 4810  I think it’s when evangelism begin to pick sides on the choice of people’s lifestyle and it becomes to be judgemental. And then the moment you become judgemental I will draw myself back from you. And I switch off. 
MM: 4830 Now you’ve spoken about this already, yes.
MZ009: 4835  When you just throw stones to me I put off. I mean the reality that we are facing now that the church is saying, “Let the conversation continue”…it is about the gay and lesbian marriage and all that. You can’t separate culture from Christian beliefs and religion and upbringing, because my beliefs I make based on what I taught as I grow up. So now how do I reach out to all aspects of life? I understanding where this gay community because I’ve got my own prejudice I’ve got my own ideas about them…the moment I open my mouth the first thing that comes into my mind is ag! that this is disgusting. But come, come…come close to me…let’s begin the conversation  [4929] We need people to unlearn…
MM: 4938 [unclear sentence] 
MZ009: 4941  We have to learn – and then you unlearn [laughter]
MM: 4948 Anything that John Wesley’s…? You know, John Wesley was considered a very successful evangelist. What do you think made him so successful? So persuasive as an evangelist? 
MZ009:  4959 Sure…I think, his ministry there was no limitation in my own point of view. I think he had quoted working with Martin Luther King, “the world is my parish”. So I think he had adopted that ideology of going everywhere whereby I meet people to preach and convert. Our church structures are limiting some time, or the choice of ministries that we decide over, and we always put boundaries. We have got discipline and we have got laws of pastoral interference and orders and pulpit limitation, who says what, who sits on my board and who doesn’t. And for John Wesley his style was that whenever I find souls I preach the Good News to all  
MM: 5105 He was an astonishing man! I’ve been reading his Journals and finding them really interesting…OK. Is there budget allocation for people and concerns beyond the church. At MZ009 suburb 1 and at MZ009 suburb 2 is there a budget allocation specifically for people who are not members, who are outsiders, for evangelism or anything?  
MZ009: 5138  I think there is and there isn’t. It’s there and it’s not there. There is this poor fund offertory, which is a missional fund when it’s to do the mission. But sometimes it is not used for its purposes. Because of the reality of the status of what we are seated with in the house. And for me to go and feed you outside there I have to be able to have something to eat myself and I’m not going to give you food with attitude. I need to be [unclear word] myself. That is the reality inasmuch as we have it, the budget. But we don’t have to the greater extent. 
MM: 5231 Last question! Here’s a fantasy situation, OK…imagine some rich donor or something gave you the modest amount of R10,000 on condition that you spent it on evangelism. How would you spend it? Or how would you want it to be spent? It’s only R10,000, it’s not…
MZ009: 5300  I think what I would do, based on my experience, there are shelters next to my community. I would secure a place for shelters, because this is what I have been talking about. We need to buy beds and nights in the shelter and keep the tickets as the church. I keep them with me…some are remaining in the church. You see the people at the robots, selling, saying please help me raise R18 for shelter, for a ticket of the shelter, then you give the person a ticket, and they are able to go  
MM: 5339 OK. It’s a long-term project of care 
MZ009: 5341  And then there are those that are under the bridge with kids. And we continue to try to bring them into the church and give them something to eat before they go back to their bridge. Not just imposing ourselves but trying to understand if is food what they need, or what we assume they need, and we engage with each and every group
MM: 5412 I like your thinking
MZ009: 5414  And then we get some thoughts about what is actually a need for them…that would help most of our mission work, because there is a greater need for our church to speak to the lives of our community. Because they actually don’t …they do speak so that it would ease our conscience of being a church, let me do something. In reality we are doing nothing, which is the sad part of it 
MM: 00.00 Well, thank you very much 
MZ009:   It’s a pleasure
MM: 00.00 That’s my story…
6756 words
2017-03-08 FA011
Age 50
FA011 suburb 1 Methodist, FE011 suburb 5
MM: 00.00 OK…it’s the sixth of June 2017 and I’m in conversation with FE011 Sasman of the FA011 suburb 1 Society and we are meeting at the FA011 suburb 2 Church. Now FA011, this is…I want the top of your heart, top of your head responses to the questions. There’s no wrong answer here, there can be no wrong answer. There's just what you see – and that is what is of value to the study. And I’m really grateful to you for agreeing to this … OK… First of all, tell me about any evangelism that happens in your local church or involves your congregation members in any way
FA011: 0057 Number one, I’m an evangelistic preacher, whether it’s at a funeral or wherever, I make time to do a prayer or wherever for people to make sure and take a moment …you know… to take that holy moment to accept Jesus as Lord and Saviour – that I firmly believe, that everybody needs to be saved and so there are times on Sundays that if the Spirit leads me I will make an altar call. It doesn’t have to be a special service, if I do feel led by the Lord …my stewards and our congregation know that they can feel free at any time, if they do feel led by the Lord, you know, some prompting of the Spirit, you know maybe they feel if I don’t, they feel free to participate in … but we are very big on people getting saved and to get to that point of assurance of salvation, so I do that, funerals or whatever. But of course we do have women’s fellowship on a weekly basis, the men’s fellowship also go out to our homes and [0156] there are times when we have outreaches, not planned, but people will say “We need a home service by somebody’s house: we feel those people are needing it in different areas”; so …FA011 suburb 1 in FE011 suburb 5 is near the N2 it’s more of an informal kind of settlement – it’s just not really developed…there’s only a few brick homes so we find people are very much with other churches because we have small little churches that spread up on the mission field there, mission… you know the mission station… so you find people saying “look, we’re gonna have a little bit of an open air service” there like about two weeks ago there was an open  air service…so we’re very much on the ecumenical side of it and join with other churches when there’s something 
MM: 0246  I’d love to visit someday – local preachers’ Sunday or something ..
FA011: 0249  Yes, do! OK, that will be a good idea, we can ask and then maybe you can come…are you a local preacher? Wow, praise the Lord, OK. That’s fine…so I’ll put your name on in our …or we must try and ask the superintendent to plan you at FA011 suburb 1…not FA011 suburb 1 Road, because that’s FE011 suburb 4, FE011 suburb 5…[street names]. We love that. Ja, I’m very enthusiastic about this. Yes, no our local preachers are seriously evangelistic preachers most of the time. I love teaching, but I do believe in every point I make some point of a …sort of allow people that are not sure…you know, not intimidating, but give them the space, because you never know, you know? Can I share something that happened one day at a funeral?   
MM: 0343  Yes – I want stories! 
FA011: 0346  at a funeral I was … we had a funeral and it was for a person who had died I think it was of drugs and stuff…because we have a major, major, I mean everybody has that but of course in some areas I think it’s more than others …but anyway but this person passed away and we had this funeral for people who don’t normally come to church anyway so them family members – we’re a big family church, everybody is married to everybody, so you know from the eighteen hundreds they live there, get married to each other whatever...So we had this funeral and you know we just had some time with the Lord that I had this strong prompting from the Lord that, you know what, you need to make an altar call…so of course I’m a Methodist theologian, and I say to myself, you know there’s a place for everything, so Lord I really don’t want to do this now. That’s my first real experience…you know, like a klap from the Lord, literally….because I tries to resist that, but I couldn’t, I couldn’t even end the service, us going to the graveyard [0446] because we walk from the church to the graveyard, and go and bury the person, so I…I just had to so I said “Look there’s somebody here who really feel you know you need to respond in a different way to the Lord besides the prayer that we just did, but I feel somebody…” really you can’t go on, you need to do this and come forward for prayer and just make an open you know declaration of your acceptance of the Lord as your Saviour. And about a few people came, say three of them came … you know of course you can have the smells of alcohol and you can see the stuff…so  … I prayed for this specific lady that came, you know, and immediately it looked like she wasn’t drunk any more. It was awesome. And so we went to the…we finished the service in church and we went to the graveyard. As I was doing the committal and the … whatsaname… Someone came to me and said, “Rev, there was a very bad accident now on the road” and I’m turning because they said, the interrupted me, and I go “excuse me?” You know because it’s highly … you know…because they said, No, somebody was just bumped now by a car I think it was…And I said [0601] “What?” and I said “OK” ..ja...and so they said to me “You know the lady that just gave her life to Jesus? That’s the lady.” Ja, I never forget that. Unforgettable. That is 2006. I never ever forget that. It was awesome. Why was it awesome? Because I could stand there, I said to them… I turned, because it was something everybody heard and knew about, and I said “You know what is beautiful about this is that that lady is in God’s hands, completely. And so whether she lives or whether she dies she’s in the Lord. I’m so grateful for that grace”, so I said a prayer, I said “Thank you Lord for a life and you are just in charge. You know she didn’t die – she lived, and it’s beautiful…I’m just…ja…those are the moments, and from that time I …try not to grieve the Holy Spirit. And ja…I’ve taken a lot of flak for Holy Spirit  … and just being the person who tries to listen, and being obedient … ja… [laughter] I’ve taken quite a lot of flak     
MM: 0704  Flak from…who gives you flak? 
FA011: 0705  The church! [laughter] The church and its members and stuff. And so I would love for them to read Jennings’ book on the spiritual occurrences of John Wesley – it’s published 2005. Have you read it, that book?
MM: 0719  No I haven’t.  
FA011: 0720  I would suggest any local preacher, any minister …”The Spiritual Occurrences”, ja, “The Spiritual Occurrences of John Wesley”. I’ve actually downloaded it once but my phone was stolen so I don’t have it any more but I …. I sent it to a couple of people but I was shocked because my training was very…you know you can’t read all of this stuff of John Wesley, I mean not even in a lifetime, I don’t think. But I tried and I was just fascinated because I had this…but anyway…I’m just speaking…so 
MM: 0756  No, this is exactly what I want, yes 
FA011: 0757  So anyway, I was born a Moslem, and at the age of eleven, just before I turned twelve, my Mom insisted , because I was born…my mother wasn’t married to my dad, he was a Moslem. So she got married to a Christian guy who was a drunk so he didn’t go to church. We lived around the corner from a Methodist Church, but she asked him … look, a Moslem, myself and my Mom were Moslem but my other brothers and sisters were not, and so we had Christmas and we had the Moslem holidays and my mother said, “No, this is not going to go on” … she can’t speak or understand Arabic, so this is it, we’re all going to become Christians – she … he must tell her where. Where’s his church? So he says “No, I’m a Methodist and our church is right around the corner, born a Methodist. So she goes to the Reverend Deerham, and Reverend Deerham spoke to my mother and they … her son’s Mashmina, and my name Mashiona  - I have two different names, Mashiona and Mashmona. And so I said well my mother’s forcing me to become a Christian – there’s no way… when I’m at a certain age I’m going to go back to Islam, you know [0904] Anyway, so my family was upset, from my mother’s side, very angry, and we had to be baptised. My dad went to the gate, he never came back – he says “I’m coming now”. He never came back. My mother’s standing there with these five children. I’m the eldest so the minister starts baptising my mother in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, in Eldorado Park where I grew up. And …so he comes to me and he baptises me in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit and bhowah [explosive sound] I went down! I went down, I fell down. Right there in the church. They carried me out, I didn’t know what happened …I woke up at the door of the church with somebody saying “Smelling salts, smelling salts”, and another lady says “This is not …this child did not faint”. My mother said “She couldn’t of fainted – we ate at home we walked around here, she’s never done this before, I don’t know what this is, you know this is not something…” And so the other lady says, “This is the Holy Spirit”, but I’m coming to “Vlugsout, vlugsout” but you know I don’t know what’s going on with me. Since then I couldn’t understand I still was saying I’m going to turn back to Islam and stuff, I don’t know about this Jesus stories [1010] I…but I was led by the Lord, you know, and I heard these people singing from far, these open airs, and I don’t know what’s going on but I just have memories of sitting on a stone near these flats and watching these people, like sitting in amazement looking I don’t know what I was doing but when I got home my mother gave me a hiding because I was gone for a long time, she didn’t know… And it went on and at the age of fifteen I had an experience with Jesus and he said to me “I’m not a prophet. I’m not nabi Isa.”  So the whole story…I accepted the Lord, I remember, and he told me, you are going to become you must a minister in the Methodist church. He says to me, you will lay hands on the sick, you will drive out demons, you will raise the dead…I got  … like...but his presence is so  awesome and I thought “Wow! This is crazy” I called my Moslem family there and they thought I was sick so my mother had to take me to hospital and like the blood went out of me…it’s like literally! You must know when you experience Jesus it’s not something [laughs] My whole body reacted to that [1113] And my mother said the whole blood…I was pale like somebody that has nothing in …they couldn’t understand they thought I am going mad because something I was speaking stuff that the Moslem don’t get that that I’m calling …they were visiting, this was on a Sunday… so I called them and I said to them “ You guys, the truth is Jesus is God, you need to accept Jesus” and so I started telling them this thing, they took me to hospital, long story short…and anyway, I was preaching in the hospital, people getting…the doctors doing all kinds of stuff on me thinking “What’s going on with this child?” Anyway, long story short I started preaching at the age of fifteen, I … you know, in the Methodist Church, local preaching, and of course I said I must go in the ministry at the age of eighteen…I want to go right now so Reverend Chunow was our minister at that time, Chunow that’s here, says to me, no, I must get Matric. I says to him, no, the Lord never spoke anything about Matric because the world is dying and I need to go tell them about Jesus and he said  no you must, and anyway [1213] so I went on doing matric … I didn’t go into the ministry because my dad lost his job that year when I was in Matric, and I asked the Lord can I work for them just for a year or so then I’ll go. Of course life happens then I think I’m gonna serve Jesus I’ll preach in another way, I’ll pray and that’s what I did. I preached, I prayed, whatever. I ran away from the ministry afterwards because my own life went berserk, and I thought no, no, no, the Lord isn’t serious. You know it’s not serious, but maybe I didn’t understand correctly what he was saying…I will just preach and pray and do whatever …Until, until…he came again and ja… lots of stories but anyway I’m here and I didn’t know…so, two years ago I phone my dad – I thought his family were Indian people from Kimberly and I said to him, “I want to meet my Grandma” because I was heavy into the Khoi-san thingie, I was a senior chief because I felt that the so-called coloured [1312] people in this whole nation is being you know just overlooked, and so I…people came to see me, from my pulpit, hearing me speaking they say “We want this minister to be a senior chief” I go “What?” but anyway, but OK fine…some of that was in my dreams, that I had, and I wrote them down, and I couldn’t… when they came I thought this is crazy – I dreamed about something this like but I couldn’t… but anyway, OK, and as I am I listened and I knew that this was…and I phoned my dad and I want to meet…I don’t know who I am …you know, I want to find out what’s going on with me –who’s this person here? So I thought it’s Indian people because my  Grandmother… my mother told me about people that look like Hottentot on a photo when she was younger …She kept on asking but they keep on giving her a hiding – who’s this lady that doesn’t look like us? So I asked my mother and she told me and I said OK fine so from that side we had these people, but now Kimberley, now this is very important in my testimony, when I went there with one of my church members – she helped me drive…to Joburg, and I made an appointment with my aunt – my dad gave me her phone number and I phoned them and everything, and my granny’s very old, she’s like ninety-eight and I said to him, OK, and I really want to meet my family because I told him about this stories. We didn’t have a good relationship all these years because he’s a Muslim, I’m Christian, and he was very angry with me so the whole thing but in the end you know, we had our story sorted out and I went to Kimberly.  And I got there in a coloured area and I knock on the door and these black people answer the door. So I thought they’re helping my granny…so I see there’s an old lady sitting there  - pitch, pitch, pitch black lady… and I thought she’s my granny’s friend because now maybe they’re visiting, must be looking after my granny…. so I walk past, and no, the lady, and this aunty says to me, “This lady is actually your granny” [1513] And I said, “What?” because now she told me that she asked me what am I doing and all that on the phone and she says to me “I want you to wear your collar” because I couldn’t understand, why must I wear my collar as a Methodist minister when I go to see my Indian granny, my Moslem granny? When I got there I understood. My father was born a Methodist – my granny was a Manyano. And remember, Jesus told me  and I couldn’t understand, I mean I had never been to the… I … ja .. so that’s a long story short. And then I’ve had lots of problems coming in the ministry, running away from the Lord, and remember I received the Holy Spirit in the Methodist church…and so I was operating in the gifts and it wasn’t very … very… kind of…because I was so young they just tolerated me when I did altar calls and stuff that nobody else was allowed to do those years [1612] But they just humoured me because this fifteen, sixteen year old starting to preach in the church is full, packed, and I tell the people about Jesus that they need to make a committal. So anyway, that’s evangelism for me. It’s always been … and so…um… ja…now when I go and minister or whatever I find I’m not looking for stuff, it just happens. So…um… I was on probation in Durban…no, phase two… because I was at seminary for the first year…I was the first year here in 2006, at this same church, FA011 suburb 1, FE011 suburb 5, and I was called there. I … this white minister, Rob Simm, from  FE011 suburb 6, now… ja he was a very strict person… and so I came there… he came to Pretoria to look for me because I was the only coloured minister at the seminary in 2007, and then there was name withheld 1, was a white guy, and the rest was about twenty-nine black ministers. So of course the white churches were looking for  white guys so they came for name withheld 1, name withheld 1 was already taken by another white church so they [laughter}       
MM: 17125  So you were head hunted 
FA011: 1727  I was head hunted I was head hunted because now no so the superintendent comes to see me and he says to me, well you’re just going to be there for a year and I must tell you the average age is 65 and it’s white people, pure white congregation. Now I could have just there fainted immediately because of fear. I mean there I am, this new minister, and the Lord alone knows what they’re going to go through and what I’m going to go through with these white people, and …. 65 average age! …and so I go to FE011 suburb 7 which was…ja… when I find out that Botha House was there, it’s right there where [apartheid politician’s house] is, and that golf course, that famous one and [prestigious school] is there, and in that area and so I’m…it’s a previous AWB area and I’m …the mayor, the previous mayor belongs to the church. Of course now I am… What the heck!
MM: 1828  [giggles and then laughs] This is a tough gig!
FA011:1836   [laughs} and so this evangelism stories, I’m thinking, so I visit the church in October, he tells me “You’re here for a year” – and just for a year, because this is it. You know, just please don’t make yourself comfortable, you’re just there for a year. So of course now I’m coloured, I can’t make myself comfortable with this white people, so I thought to myself  now I’ll visit them in October and  name withheld 2 and I think he’s here somewhere, somewhere here in Cape Town – he was the minister and he’s so soft spoken and he stands there very prim and proper, and we’re worshipping, we’re singing other songs, you know, contemporary songs, and my daughter and I are getting up to sing, and we realise in the middle of the song that we’re the only ones standing… so these people are singing “This is the day that the Lord has made” or something that is very exciting and they’re sitting there singing, and I’m standing, and suddenly [1927] and so for the next song I thought for the sake of Jesus I’m going to stand right through this one song…. And so afterwards I sat down very respectfully and sang with them. So of course when I came there I started preaching like name withheld 2, very softly, and I held onto the pulpit very tightly … so that I don’t move at all or say anything 
MM:  1950 You’re painting a picture
FA011: 1952  [laughs] yes, it was a story – so, this evangelism thing came … it’s very, very close to my heart because you can hear the experiences so I came there and I’m preaching these things, and the seminary is giving us on our phase, Wesley’s sermon “You must be born again” and they give that to us as a project that I must hand in and I must do all these things, and I’m sitting here with ninety-something year old congregation members eighty- something, you know, and they’re looking at me like I’m crazy so I try and talk to them in Bible studies and I go to the Bible studies, you know, and I open this things up and of course it spills over in the sermons because part of the whole project and they’ve phoned the Superintendent “This is a charismatic minister – she preaches stuff we have never heard before. This is not sort of you know this ‘born again ‘ thing’s a charismatic thing – what is she talking about” you know. So I try and bring this sermon in a different way, every time, try and make it mellow, but the assignment is… so I’m getting this flak from the Superintendent and the whole congregation. And so then, just for my sin, not for my sin but I don’t know what to call it but now this people come out of rehab one Sunday morning and I’m preaching, and they begin to cry, in the service. I’m preaching very, very mellow, trying not to get people excited, because I just want to get out of FE011 suburb 7 and get through seminary and get through everything that they tell me to do…and stay safe in this congregations …. So the people start crying. Of course now I’m starting to pray and I [2131] said there’s somebody, and this people come, walk up, no altar call – they want prayer.  So now of course a few people feel sorry for me in the congregation also stood, you know, and it is in the [local hall], we didn’t have a church then…so…I just respectfully try and pray from far…I don’t want to touch nobody – I don’t want no ructions of the Holy Spirit – I just want to get finished with this sermon. And so anyway while I’m preaching they’re coming up and the other people came, I said OK, let’s pray. So I’m standing here and the people are falling over that side so my whole nerves are finished. So I said, Lord, I haven’t come for this stuff here, I never asked them, this is …I think they’re going to kick me out of the ministry before I’ve get started, because it’s not right… but anyway there’s a long story with Verryne even before this happened…and anyway, so here’s this tongue-talking minister that don’t want to pray in tongues and forgetting the  lapel mike is right here and so I’m praying softly, praying and it ends up in a tongue but I’m not [2242] realising I’m playing right into the microphone but of course people start falling all over the place and I didn’t even touch them. So anyway people get saved and give their lives to Jesus – the one just came out of – I don’t know these people – just came out of the rehab in FE011 suburb 8. I mean I never told them come to the church so in that week the steward was assigned, Paul Brown, was assigned to come and speak to the minister respectfully… he’s coming on behalf of a delegation - he brought me some cake and tea and biscuits…Now I know white people now only – they bring you tea and biscuits they’re going to chew you out …. OK…so I don’t know, anyway, so I didn’t know, I made the tea, I had the biscuits and I was very happy until he started telling me why he was there. He said it was whole theatrics, I’d actually planned this whole thing, you know…staged this whole thing, you know, with these people in church. So all the thing I couldn’t understand and he was sitting there in the lounge, now I’m looking at this guy and I’m thinking “No I shouldn’t have eaten this cake because I’m not feeling very spiritual right now.” [2343] you know to be able to answer this guy…so I looked at him and I said, “You know it’s so sad…very, very sad when I stand at one of the people’s bedside … they’re about to pass on to be with Jesus…do you know how many of your congregation members said to me, “Are you sure I’m going to go to heaven?” I said, “Do you know that that is the question that they ask me?” And there I realised that this congregation for such a time as this has this minister – it needs to be obedient to Jesus. I have to tell the truth – we all need to be saved…that’s it! You cannot go your whole life to church and not know that you must get saved – ask Jesus to come into your life, whatever way you want to call it  - have a relationship with Jesus and stuff – but be sure of your salvation. You can’t now be dying and wanting to know from me will you go to heaven. And I said to him another thing you go and read your Bible because I don’t know why God put Adam to sleep when he [2443] does things, see… so when these people are laying there I don’t know what God does to them. And I also don’t know why God put Abraham to sleep…however…because he was just going to mess it all up. I said to him I don’t know why the priests and the people fall in the presence of God [2502] and the angels come and their bodies can’t take it…I said to him “If you’ve experienced the Lord like that you will understand that your human, physical flesh cannot always contain this presence of God…but anyway long story short, I had a big, big problem. With this evangelism – because I was now charismatic and preaching they must be born again. And then I was invited by the ministers at FE011 suburb 6 that is [local church school]? Or what’s that home for Methodist ministers in FE011 suburb 6? …. But they all invited me respectfully to this…after I had got into trouble, all this …time, they told me they’d let me down, so they called me and gave me tea and cake         
MM:  2552  Oh no! 
FA011:2553  [laughter] these white people! And so I was ready for this one now, I knew, I knew…  
MM: 2556  I’m never going to take cake to anybody ever again 
FA011: 2558  [laughter] cake and tea, they come, and so I was invited there …. [Methodist retirement home], I think? Opposite this church, and the Methodist ministers – there were all these professors in theology and the previous minister was there…. name withheld 3, I think he’s ninety-something now… and there’s lots of… name witheld 4 who was their minister was there also, for many years and he was very well known in the evangelical Methodist ministers thing, you know that thing? The evangelical Methodist ministers’ story, that group? So anyway, they were there, ministers, and so like they felt very sorry that they left me there like this, all alone by myself, you know, to just come there and they haven’t made contact. Contacted me and everything and said how’s it going. So I said this crazy thing is happening at FE011 suburb 7 – it’s a good thing that you’re inviting me. They said “Really?” and I said “… so I find out that these people have been born in the Methodist church but they don’t know that they must be saved. They have not got a clue about the Four Alls of our tradition, and then they tell me this “born again” thing is all charismatic and that they are not on for this…so I said I really don’t know how to deal with this thing” and they all [2715] … you know. So I plan all of them in the you know, thingie, from then on, and the congregation come to me the next week: “FE011! You wouldn’t believe what happened here in church!” and I said “Really?”  “name withheld 3  preached “you must be born again’   And the next time  it’s this one preaching “Give your life to Jesus” and I said, “They did?”  I said “Wow! This is like a strange thing”. So evangelism?  Awesome time.
MM: 2746  Now I’ve got some questions that I need you to work through as well, more sort of systematically. That is brilliant. That is gold. Exactly that is what I need. But there are some other things I would like you to think about. What did people convert from? When people become Christians, what do they convert from? There’s a “to” – to Jesus…but what do they convert from? 
FA011: 2815  I’ll answer that – in our context, basically, you find people born in the Methodist Church, or you know raised up in the church, go through confirmation, whatever, the whole rigmarole… but some of them actually in the end find the need for something deeper, they feel “I’m not that close to Jesus, I’ve got this emptiness” A specific person – question two – tell me stories about people who have experienced conversion in your local church. This is the lady I spoke about…and there are many others that I can mention. But the one person is name withheld 5. She says to me, “Rev, I was born in the church, whatever, whatever, but you know, I accepted, not, I never accepted Jesus, but I didn’t understand what this is all about  - I went through the whole church thing but something wasn’t, she said, nothing changed in my life” and she says she love to … she was seriously into alcohol, partying, whatever, even if she was married afterwards she continue with that kind of a life and she always said to the Lord “I wish I can be like these other people – there must be something that they’re talking about “ you know because she had you know in our context the word “getting saved” or “being born again” in the coloured context is a particular lifestyle and a total change is expected if that happens. So that’s something that is very clear in our context. There’s never a grey kind of a area. [2939] so she said to me, how she told me was that I was preaching again and then I felt that the Lord said to me “Go pray down the aisles – go down the aisle” And I go “OK” and so he says to me “Pray” and I prayed and I said, “Father, I loose these  people from whatever is holding them back in their relationship with you”. And I remember as I came to the front I found that there was somebody that came to the altar as I got back up on the pulpit. And I saw this lady - I didn’t even make an altar call then -  so she was literally shaking and crying. She couldn’t speak and I then went back and I prayed for her because I tried to say, you know, but she couldn’t and I just prayed, laid my hands on her and said, “Lord, you know. I thank you for your touch on her” and prayed. [3035] for her, and after that I ended off the service. And then she waited for me and she says to me “this is what I prayed all these years”. I said “Lord, there will be somebody that’s coming, because I know sometimes I want to give my life to Jesus but I sit, I feel like something is holding me back, and I feel like I’m gonna fail and if I do this everybody knows me and they’re gonna, you know, expect, but I think I’m gonna fail.” She says but this something keeps holding her. But she says when you walked I felt something lift, and she says “I was waiting” she said, “I was waiting for a child of God to come, and I know that I will be released. She was released. Her name is name withheld 5, she’s into the prophetic, she’s … Wow, the Lord has just…she is .. when she prays for people they get healed, if she speaks…she’ll come and came and say “You know I believe this…” And it happens just like that. She’s a very humble person in the Lord and I’ve seen the change…like everybody knows in the whole of our area people respect that lady [3141] because they know who she was before … she used to swear, drink or whatever, now she’s with Jesus she cries [in tearful tone] “Oh I love Jesus” she tells people “You don’t know” and when she prays … we’ve prayed for many people together and she operates in the gifts of the Spirit, powerfully, she loves people, and I mean at many times we have people giving their lives to Jesus you know, it’s something that’s beautiful to see you know.          
MM: 3210  Let’s go on to question three – thank you for that, it’s lovely… In the last five years would you estimate that your congregation has grown, stayed more or less the same, or has shrunk in numbers? 
FA011: 3233   O ja, this is an interesting question. I think it’s shrunk in numbers, I think it did. I think why I’m saying that…we have so many what do you…the children that get confirmed every year, so the natural thing would be for the numbers to grow … the numbers are growing, right…the numbers are growing. But the congregation is shrinking…so it’s a bit of a thingie with the question “shrunk in numbers” that the numbers are growing but the actual attendance at worship is shrinking, do you see.. Because after this confirmation they stay away. Because we had on average for a couple of years thirty, thirty three people, children getting confirmed, but the thing is they only come to church when they want to go to confirmation class, So for two years they have to go through this pre-confirmation class and then move on to confirmation. Those two years they will come to church and wharrer, wharrer, but after that they fall through the cracks, and …. The question would be, why? [3321]  
MM:  3332 Ja, I’m very interested, because you’re not alone. This is not your church alone 
FA011:  3335 I’ll tell you why. I believe we have left this conversion that we have grown out of, Wesley’s conversion, we have failed along the way to make that the beginning of everything in our lives. I know the doctrine of grace where we are moved in certain means of grace to get there, but we haven’t placed much emphasis on that enough, I would say, because people come there because it’s just you know some party, I believe, and I tell…it’s a party – it’s new clothes, it’s this big hype; they’re going to get confirmed. That’s in our context – that’s what I know. And it’s true, I can say it from growing up I know it’s been like that all these years. And very few, even if our confirmation service says “Have you accepted Jesus Christ as your Lord and Saviour?” “Yes” they answer, “Yes I’m going to serve the Lord” but it doesn’t mean anything. Some of them really are seriously are not saved. There’s no question about it. [3432] And we still do the confirmation because how do you challenge and then you have the whole … how do you say to somebody “Do you know that this confirmation actually means, you said “I have...I accept Jesus”? Do you know that is what you are going to be saying? Do you know what it means? So I started with the confirmation class, we start doing our stuff right through for the two years we ask you “Who sent you here? Why are you here? What does it mean for you in your journey with God?” Because we have a vibrant Sunday School – it used to be, I think 350 children – so moving up to…I’m not sure the exact now because they tell me now they tell me in the holidays it’s more, at other times it’s less – I think we’re about 250 children now. Because of course many of the children have grown up and gone into confirmation and nicely move out of the church afterwards, and then come certain times to church when we do stuff, you know, [3528] or we try all sorts of things. So I believe the congregation…I believe that we should go back to a confirmation …. Before a person goes to confirmation there needs to be a serious yearning or wanting to be saved. I believe that that should be a criteria, because now it’s just about becoming a “full member” of what? I mean, the questions are asked clearly, of somebody who wants to renounce evil, who wants to do these things, that is…  
MM: 3602  These are heavy-duty questions 
FA011: 3604  That’s the questions, ja... and nowadays the clear line between sin and … between sin and grace or not just sin and grace or what it means has been blurred in the Methodist context and in the world. And I believe we are losing the souls of people by this whole thing... So I don’t think….that we realise the implication of this, you know … 
MM: 3634  Do you have people coming into your church from backgrounds that aren’t Methodist?  
FA011: 3643  Yes…yes….
MM: 3644  What sort of different, what sort of people come in  
FA011: 3644  We have people that’s not saved, that have not gone to churches, their own churches, for many years. What I find is a good place for evangelism is at funerals. I do funerals in the area if the person doesn’t belong to our church I grab that opportunity and I don’t give it to a local preacher if I can. So I grab those at times of…I don’t go as being insensitive for a funeral and start bashing and thrashing people about hell, of course, I know how to be a proper theologian and being true to God’s grace and everything, but I never miss that opportunity…to allow them softly, very, very gently to think about life, you know. So then they come to church. I see them, you know…and ja….    
MM: 3730  Now you yourself come from a Muslim background…are other Muslim people coming in?  
FA011: 3737  Yes, there’s people, they actually, they stay Moslem, but because they come to these funerals they love my sermons [laughter]. They tell me themselves, they go “What….” I mean I had a Moslem couple coming on Ascension Day service, coming in, and I’m shocked! What do you do? And then the Maundy Thursday one – came, the same couple, you know – it’s [name withheld] – and they’re Moslem, so I thought they came to see me for some reason or other, that’s why they sat at the back of the church, and then…because there’s a few people attending those services during the day and I thought they want to see me, and afterwards they never said a word, so I just realised, they came to church. They actually come to church! Moslem, with everything on, kofia and everything sort of, and I’m thinking “Wow, Jesus!” and another totally told me straight, “I’m coming Rev…I can’t wait when you have another funeral. I go “Why?” She says “Then I have an excuse to come to church”. You see they … they convert, they convert but some of them really loves Jesus and some of them really I think a lot of them are people that used to be Christian and have converted, .got married or stuff, and others are like Moslem, born Moslem, that’s just think…somehow…it’s something … and then there is a girl [name withheld] I baptised her. She came out of rehab and everything and then she came somehow came [3908] she was invited or whatever So what …we did a baptism thingie…we had bought this big pool kind of thing and I’ve got it on video that I … we had the whole service, we went out of the service right there, because she was never baptised before and I asked her She said “I really want to be immersed, Rev.” So I tell the congregation now listen, so I taught them nicely what we believe so I stay out of trouble, but you know I did it before, 2006, I baptised eight people immersion and Aaargh! These Methodists were going crazy.  And I said “they were never baptised before. What must I do? They want to be immersed”. So the superintendent says “Go….” Anyway I baptised [name withheld]] she accepted Jesus as her Lord and Saviour and she really wanted to get baptised fully. And then I went in the yard of the church, and the church came out. It was a crazy service … because we went out and then we had this beautiful thing. That’s [name withheld[]. And where I go, not just in church – but I don’t have to say a word [3909] [laughter] Seriously! They sit next to me, these Moslem people, and they ask me, “Sorry, but who are you?” I’ve experienced that. I’ve taken my car to a mechanic and sitting there, waiting for him to do something on my car, and the wife came out, she sat next to me she jumped up, she says, “Who are you?” I go “Why?”  She says “There’s something on me”. I go “OK?” and so I’m smiling, and she says, “But seriously…” I went in the house, it was so dirty, you could see something’s wrong. And the lad said to me, “Look, you know, I’ve had this problems” and I just …and I still never told her who I was…I just looked at her and say, “No, why are you saying that?” and she says “No, I’m feeling all these things” and I say “OK fine” and I told her certain things that the Lord had told me about her now, so she says “Yes” [4110] and then afterwards I just tell her “You know I am  a child of God and I love Jesus and stuff” so she says to me “I don’t know what it is but I haven’t had…” you know, the menstruation thing. Her stomach was this big and she had a phantom pregnancy on many occasions and she doesn’t know, and so when her husband is not there she runs to a church for people to pray for her. I said, “Really?” She says “But it’s so bad” and she starts telling me. And I could see this lady wasn’t OK – I mean you had clothing…I just sat there and I could see the bathroom piled up like that you know, dirt stuff, and the house? The curtains were dark, dark dirty, she wasn’t in a good space. And I just looked at her and said, “You know, Jesus loves you so much” and she says “I must close here because if my husband’s coming in here I’ll be in trouble. Please!...”  I said, “No, don’t you worry about him. The angels of the Lord will hold him right there where he is, he will not come in here”. I said “But you know that Jesus loves you.” “Yes I know.” So I said, [4209] “Well, don’t you want to say a prayer with me?” And she accepted the Lord right there. I prayed for her, and I just rebuked that thing over her life, and when she went to the bathroom she had her menstruation, in how many years and years she tells me, she’s “Oh!” And I says “No, go, I know, just go she was fine” And she went pshwttt [deflating sound] down. And this lady started cleaning her house. I mean I looked at this transformation and I go “Jesus!”[high cheering tone]. Go Jesus!” I went. And so I love it, I love it, just sitting with people. That’s not just in church. So people know about this crazy Methodist minister.        
MM: 4250  I’m learning about her. I’m enjoying what I’m finding. Now, can you describe your congregation in terms of languages, culture mix and socio economic factors 
FA011: 4303  Ja…Afrikaans. Afrikaans, but they want me to preach in English because it is a higher social standing … in Cape Town the coloureds that speak English are seen as a higher class. So when I was invited they told me, “This is an Afrikaans congregation” so I started – you know, my first language is Afrikaans – and so I start preaching in Afrikaans whatever and I get these hyper-fi people – you know we call it “hyper-fi” when we get these upstanding people coming to say to me and saying “Rev, you know our children do actually go to these other schools and stuff, and they don’t understand this Afrikaans” I go “ Woah! I thought it’s medium Afrikaans and English. Why? Because I mean it’s … they all learn this, and so don’t…you shouldn’t…so you don’t get people besides in Durban, coloureds, that don’t speak Afrikaans…Anyway, the whole story was that ja, I had to preach in two languages, to keep the young people interested but the elderly people couldn’t understand much of the sermon. So I have to gooi English and Afrikaans and try and find the mix. If I get carried, shame, I lose somebody, whether it’s [4415] them…so that’s what I do, it’s language…and then…we don’t have Xhosa people coming to our church because FA011 suburb 1 Mission Station is a coloured community. If we do we have, we had people just visiting, sitting at the back, or coming, that used to be at the crèche, just working there …and then we have people coming. Culture? A mix. Coloured people, we do have them married to some Xhosa people, and now it’s even more with the Xhosa people because of MA011 suburb 7 squatter camp. It’s they tried to invade the land, but now they’re having babies with… you know… coloured girls around there … so the culture mix is a story. But mainly coloured …they’re so coloured that they’re racist many times and I have to teach them about racism and stuff I mean that’s an ongoing thing 
MM: 4511  So people from the rest of Africa, migrants 
FA011: 4512  Not in FA011 suburb 1 much or if they do they hide in the bushes and you see somebody put up a hokkie somewhere or they have a child from someone, but not that we know of. We have a few people in our community that’s actually African, black people that have lived there for a long time, some actually like married to somebody in FA011 suburb 1 or just somehow found a place to stay there. SO the culture mix is mainly coloured and ja… Socio-economic factors? Well, unemployment rife with us. It doesn’t bother them too much, it doesn’t bother them too much, although they have …because they have,..,, they do this char work, you know, people like working for people, and there’s houtkappers, you know, they’re entrepreneurs – I don’t know what’s houtkapper in English – whatever, they call themselves houtkappers – so that’s their tradition from of old, where their families…that’s the businesses they had. So they still will go into the bush, wherever they find and the whole FA011 suburb 1 cut down most of the stuff [4619]. So the bush. And then they find work at the fish factory down not far from us, so that’s seasonal work. But you do have nurses, you have some people that have good jobs but most of them will move out of FA011 suburb 1 but still come to church there because it’s home church. Drugs and alcohol is a major thing I mean the children that’s at school the teachers are telling me that five, six year olds on drugs and stuff. And parents young and old, or the…I don’t know why? How can a person of that age begin to go on drugs, I don’t know. I have no idea where they get spiked or something in some way so they end up getting…my information, they could get spiked – do you know what I’m saying? – so that they get hooked so that they give their [4709] pension money then for the stuff to be …. That’s the only thing – I haven’t got proof I can only go about what I’m told that that happens. So, ja, we have a drug support group going. Our church supports any family who needs ….children or anything that want to go, and then we support them for three months to go to a rehab, and we pay for that and we … you know, I used to go out and have this group, just this support group that’s came out of rehab but sometimes we’d sit there and they don’t come – so we go to them and then they run away as soon as they see the cars because you can’t always walk nicely because of the dogs, you know, so it’s a story, it was a challenge, but we continue We continue socio-economic factors, yes, Pregnancies, yes. It just…yes…it’s a nightmare. That’s all I can say. We have problems with electricity, the vandalism of the own community and the squatters around us, that even take out the plugs of Eskom, those things – they disconnect it. [4813] So the church and the school without electricity, we can’t…you  know.. we battle because in today’s age you need like nice music, the projector to work, you know, to have that … ja… seeker sensitive kind of thing. Ja…that’s it – don’t know if you want anything else about that, number four…  
MM: 4834  No, no I think you’re just painting me a picture. I find that very helpful because I’m doing “Cape Town”, and Cape Town is Constantia and Ilitha Park, you know, it’s Belhar and …Site C in Khayelitsha … it is FE011 suburb 5 and Bellville, you know.  Cape Town…what’s Cape Town? It’s one of the big issues that I’m facing
FA011: 4856  The one thing is that we…many of our people don’t have toilets…. It’s something that is bad that we used to have flooding in Cape Town with people make the tanks, you know, the sewerage, even the church. Goeters come up to the top. So we have this whole thing where we are part of the ME011 circuit name 1 Circuit where the whole… even coming to meetings for me is like I need a helicopter to fly over and get here. Ja…so, no, we … socio-economic  way like that…it’s a challenge. It’s exciting to be with people that are in pain and that need help. Unfortunately, I must say, the other side of the coin is that some people are comfortable in not paying water and electricity, not paying for anything, and so it is a great challenge to get that mind-set, you know out of them
MM: 4956  Question five…I think you answered…you launched into that fairly solidly. So I don’t think we need to go over that again But maybe just to ask, is there anything that you use from John Wesley’s life? You’ve mentioned that …to illustrate, anything that you reference when teaching on evangelism from John Wesley? 
FA011: 5018  Yes. Basically what we have in our confirmation class is we do that – what is that book called? Know and Grow? And there’s stuff about your lifestyle as a believer and stuff so we delve into a lot of that. You know, aspects of Christianity, of evangelism and how to live out your life for the Lord. I deal with this kind of thing in Bible Studies where we talk about how do you talk to your neighbour or somebody, and how do you evangelise the world. So I use that part as evangelism tools. Some people are not very educated in a lot of aspects. You have people that are, you know, but the younger educated people, the children, are not the ones that comes to Bible studies or are interested…but those are the groups and confirmation class, that we can then get those kind of things through to them. We do deal very much with John Wesley, his whole conversion and how he went out preaching [5122] and teaching us, you know, of our…social holiness, to start there being practical and then … so I believe in that social holiness, telling them, “Be practical. Befriend somebody. Don’t just push the Gospel down their throat and think…” You know I’m very much on making disciples not just believers, and so that walk, I believe in that…and I tell them I believe the fruit will remain, and yes, we do get people joining the church through our fellowship, women fellowship, our Bible studies, and people hearing about it and then come. And so our men’s fellowship is very good at that – they find places where people are needing and they visit and they evange..…and we teach them relationship and we…you know, this thing…Not very fire and brimstone preaching though, but relationship, and then leading you know people t the Lord. That’s how we do evangelism. And of course we have our, you know…if we’ve got  Pentecost services, like we had the week, then we have Holy Week services, we have … September we have youth month…. [5229] and normally we have all those services building up to, you know, and it’s all very, very evangelistic, because it’s children, it’s parents, it’s whoever that they never comes to church, and we make sure … and then we have open airs, where we join with other churches in the area you know, so ah.I haven’t been invited
MM: 5250  I’d love to attend an open air in FE011 suburb 5
FA011: 5255  Yes look it’s a joint thingie …ja…and…er…I….love this outreach evangelism because it’s because when I was invited already it was at some Pentecostal church across the road, and they had spelled my name wrong – This Pastor Samson that’s coming, so the whole FA011 suburb 1 was invited and the …when I was sitting at the back waiting for the service to begin they were looking out for the person preaching and I’m sitting there, and so afterwards when the pastor came in, you know the main pastor, I went to the front because the whole time I was told, “No, no, nobody must sit there in front, but anyway so afterwards I went to sit in front 
MM: 5338  Come up higher! 
FA011: 5339  Come up higher! So then they realised, no the speaker is here, because they were like seriously fumbling there, just to come up and find that half of my congregation is sitting there, the ones that are church hopping, but when there’s problems then they’re Methodist, but on Sundays that number’s dwindling, on Sundays you find our people going to all sorts of other churches and stuff. Mainly because they fight amongst each other in the families and they have these –what is that, interdicts or something against each other – they have literal interdicts against each other …yes I visit people, I find that that neighbour and that, so of course they can’t be together in the church and both of them stay away, both families, and it spreads. So afterwards I tell the leadership, “Do you know what’s going on in FA011 suburb 1?” So anyway I had to tell them, I didn’t mention names, there are stuff happening here that we have no idea, so it’s like a…Mannenberg kind of a situation [5438]. Almost like gang fighting or whatever you call it – kind of fighting with each other and stuff….. So ja, and then I find my people all over the place, ja….
MM: 5449  OK…looking at question six…Are there some members of your regularly attending congregation more involved in evangelism than others? And if so, you know, why is it?
FA011: 5500  Yes…some didn’t make a personal commitment…I find these that are really sure of their salvation will easily find ways of talking to somebody, you know, when the occasion arises, whatever, and …then of course we have the men’s fellowship: they are intentional, the women’s fellowship, very intentional about evangelism and such because of their relationship to the Lord. The others are just “church going Methodists” … you know… they …It’s people that are not sure or maybe not too interested at the moment of their personal walk with the Lord? Not seriously believing
MM: 5543  That’s probably fair enough – you don’t want people who are not sure to be evangelising
FA011: 5547  Yes, yes…so it’s just those that are sure that have this passion, you know, about the Lord that I find is the ones that will…ja 
MM: 5558  so…what do you think will persuade a Christian to be active in evangelism? 
FA011:  5606 I think their relationship with the Lord. I think their relationship with the Lord and also teaching. You know, about the exciting part of being part of what God is doing, and part of changing society – being part of your neighbour and changing there where you are. You now I tell them, people can pay to go to Namibia, Namaqualand, wherever, China, wherever, in FA011 suburb 1 we are in the mission field. So it’s one of my catch phrases when I have one of these people who’s moved out of FA011 suburb 1 to FA011 suburb 4 or wherever or wherever they go, they want to go around the corner, I say, “Ja, one day you want to pay for some trip or whatever to Namibia to do mission? Here’s your mission! Right here, come and have a look”  
MM: 5647  Get on a taxi.
FA011: 5650  Yes, I say come have a look here. Then some of the go “Oh rev…” and I say “There are souls here…sometimes we have a problem – we can’t get to church … because there’s tyres burning on the road. Do you know that sometimes we can’t get to church? …It is so bad…. The roads are barricaded right around the church, anywhere, you cannot come in – that’s how I do church. It’s difficult…But ja, of course, the Juke [?] tries to climb on any little thing, and I goes peep-peep-peep and I go djip [swift speedy sound] that way and try and get in to church. But I tell our congregation outside it’s actually our outside members that are active members in the church, that are supporting the church in any way – in evangelism, financially, everything. It’s the ones from the outside. The people that live in the yard of the church, like literally there, are not the people that come – and Methodists.   It’s very interesting, because … it’s a mission station. Whoever, whatever the history, and the bad things with the church, and people [5801] … that is bad, because of the land issue, you see, so that affects the church, major. So only when the have a need and when it’s flooding and when it’s this then they’re Methodist 
MM: 5816  So you’re going to get some Methodists tomorrow? 
FA011: 5817  Tomorrow? What’s tomorrow? 
MM: 5818  A big storm…  
FA011:  5820 Oh yes. Oh no. Lord have mercy. I’ve already rebuked that storm in Jesus’ name. I said, “Soft rain, please, Lord, please.” 
MM: 5830  Rain in the dam 
FA011: 5831  Yes. I said “please Lord, let it rain in the dam”.  I said “Jesus rebuke the storm – I’m not saying no rain please, Lord, clear….Because I cannot handle this.” But OK now, that kind of thing, so it’s flooding and it’s all sorts of stuff and they’re Methodists, but otherwise it’s only what they can get. But I told the leaders and I teach in Bible Study: “Look, you must not throw your pearls to the pigs”. Very controversial…because there’s an unbeliever that doesn’t know about Jesus, and there’s the one that refuses, that lives in the yard of the church that hear the sounds that we’re singing, the hymns we’re worshipping and you lay there, literally in the yard of the church, right around.  And then there are people travelling from there far to get here     
MM: 5923  Very interesting dynamic
FA011: 5924  It is, ja, but I said “Now how do you do church?” I said to them “Now you must learn the keys, you must understand what Jesus is telling you” So I tell…they say “Rev, it’s a hard one that you’re saying.” I say “Yes. Do you know why? That’s what the Lord told me…you go and have cottage meetings in people that don’t come to church for ten years.” I said, “If we do, fine, we’ve reached out in love. Sunday, are they in church?” “Rev…sometimes” But just that day, if they ever come, then they stay away for another ten years. I said, “Now you need to know what is evangelism, what is making disciples. You have not made disciples” You see what we do we feed them, we feed, we feed, I said, “That’s destructive. You cannot….There’s a responsibility as a member. You were taught – you have a responsibility to serve the Lord…there’s privileges, duties of the Christian religion. You bring your children. They have babies – they have so many babies – to be baptised. Now they come to the baptism classes, believe, before God they’re going to do this and this, I said ”You’re going to lie again, dierbares?” [10026] So then we’re going to lie right through. I start like that. I say “Ja, I see you’re pregnant, the last month of pregnancy you start coming to church. Because you’re going to fill in that form” You see, so we have to do church, and I said “Let’s tell the truth” and I look in their eyes and say “Your soul is so important before God. And these children need a committed mum and dad – and what you’re doing is not of God” and I tell them straight, “We love you so much and we tell you the truth, I’m not one of those Methodist ministers that’s going to throw the pearls to the pigs and say “You know what, as a backslider, you’re turning your back. You promise you’re going to serve God then you walk out here you find you don’t care about God – that’s not responsible”. I said to them “Because your children and the seed you are sowing into their lives then you tell your children, you wake up drunk and whatever you do, you live your life and you tell your children “You’re this age now you go to church – you must get confirmed”. I said, “So why must they come [10125]? You’re not coming? We have these meetings with the family, with the parents – where are you?” So it’s a whole cycle of…..  that’s what I believe the Methodist Church is suffering from. I believe that we are not true to our doctrine – even the very questions that we ask people before God, we don’t hold them accountable. And that’s what I told them – you don’t throw your pearls to the pigs. We will visit them, and find out where are you, although we can see you standing in the yard. And they said, “But Reverend, you know the leaders don’t come visit us and when I visit them “Ah, reverend, I haven’t I don’t know your face they say “No, your people don’t come visit us” I say Really?” I said, “Did the church address change, my friend?” “No rev”. “Must I come put your nappy on with a speld?” I said, “Do I feed you a bottle when you cry? I am not going to come do that [10226] They go “Oo, this is another minister”. No, I can’t, I cannot…look I’m there seven years again because they re-invited me again after my….they asked me to come back here. I left a very cushy station in FE011 suburb 7 – we built our church in nine months there, in FE011 suburb 7. I left that church when we opened the church. Do you see what I’m saying? So I’m coming here and I’m praying, I go to the houses, I love the people, I go “Jesus loves you”, I go door to door, and these are all Methodists, people that know the Word already. Not the ones who never heard or don’t understand…. And then they come tell me “I don’t come to church because the leaders don’t visit me”, and they tell the others “Oh the minister …” I ask them “What did you need a visit for? Did you tell me you needed me to come see you? I never changed. We are right here where you left us the last time you found us here. We never moved….the office is here! I’m here! ”      
MM: 10321  OK…let’s move on to question seven? So you told me about the drug support thing. Are there any other ways in which you take ….you contribute to your society in ways that aren’t specifically church ways but because they are ways of helping or loving the people… 
FA011: 10342  That is the drug-support team, that’s not … it’s not just for members, it’s for everybody out there that we go out. We have our soup kitchens – one in the Dam, this side (We have different areas in FA011 suburb 1).  
MM: 10400  Tell me about the soup kitchens? 
FA011: 10403  The soup kitchens, we have two people running it …we also have a soup kitchen on this side and they make food and stuff and sometimes they have somebody give a word of encouragement, just a little prayer…we don’t want to have a church service all the time because that’s not right…you know first they listen to the Word and then I give you food – I hold you hostage while you…you can’t go anywhere because you’re waiting for the food. So basically I discourage them to do that but I said, “No, just a prayer and one little encouragement is fine. Because they’re hungry, they can’t hear you. Their stomachs are grumbling. And if you give them the food before the time they’re going to leave before you pray. So we try and have a balance. And then they have one in the kampie, what we call, we also give money there so that some…one of our congregation members in that area you know can make sure that people, children have food. We try to be active in the school, in the FA011 suburb 1 Communal Property Trust, which is … the community leaders and I used to be [10503] what do you call this thing? Member … co-opted member there…they haven’t had this year the time, I get into trouble with the Bishop and them if I do that all the time if I go there too much nonsense…OK, so I try to stay out of trouble just a few months so I can breathe a bit, try not do anything, to pray more   
MM: 10528  I like your style 
FA011:  10529 You haven’t got a clue what I get up to, OK [laughter]. You’re asking me what I get involved in? I go to the mayor, I go to de Lille, the premier, and I say help us, we haven’t got money to pay the debt – there’s so much debt, near 3.5 million that’s keeping the land from being transferred so that we can develop the land, so go and get permission and they nail me for that, and I go I don’t …I didn’t know I was doing something wrong because I thought I’m a Methodist minister that does all these social things for people, you know, so I don’t understand that. So ja, I get into trouble and then I write to ask them to write it off and then they do. So I was told I mustn’t go back again. OK then the school was closed for four years and I came back here and it was derelict, the whole building…I mean everything was stripped from the building and I asked the Bishop, “Wah, what do we do?” “No, no, the society can do whatever they want to with the building” and so then the people were toyi-toying because we had to bus the children out and you’re saying we’re talking about community, what I do, what the church does, [10630] so then they bus the children to other places to go to school there, so one day they were toyi-toying on a Friday, I’m off, and I’ve got my bermuda on and everything and the secretary phones me “Rev, I know it’s your day off but there’s problems – people are toyi-toying at the school and the children must write exams” and I thought “Gee! What must I now do about this school?” But anyway OK I came there and I found the officials and everything and I asked “Who’s the highest authority here?” So anyway, just to tell you what I do in the community, and they say “That guy there” and in the meantime they also pointing to me “Is that the minister’s wife?” and the other one said “No it’s not the minister’s wife, that is the minister” because I have this bermuda on and I have my hair’s curly so it’s standing – it’s Friday, please, I’m off. And so I rock up there with my takkies and my bermuda shorts and my hair is curling all up there. So anyway I go to the person and say “Look how much are you paying for theses busses?” 250, 000 per month![10730] I said to him, “Look, I’ll tell you what, because these parents are refusing…their children aren’t going, they’re getting thrown out of that school…they’re getting bullied because they’re taking over that school, there’s no place in that area for those children because FA011 suburb 1’s children are coming there. So these parents are refusing – they’re on strike right, they’re not letting these children write exams, they’re not going anywhere. So I’m standing between the community and whatnot and I said, “Look, give me the money, the 250 a month, and we fix the school and that.” “No, but the church don’t want anything to do with the school and that and that…” and I said, “Listen Sir, I’m telling you now I am talking to you so please listen to me.” “No you don’t understand rev”. I said “I don’t care what you went through in the past, I’m telling you sir, give me the 250 000 remember the Bishop said we must do what we want to do with the school, but OK now I said “I’ve got this” He says “What?” I say “No, no, no, I’m telling you now, give me the 250 000 per month and let the children come back to the school. “No rev” I say ”We’re meeting tonight with the parents [10836] and you come, whatever you do, and we’ll meet tonight.” Tonight came and the church was full: the parents, the families, the schools official WCD warra-warra sitting there at the table and they go looking at the papers and they say “Rev, you wanted the money?” and I say “Yes I want the money to fix the school yes” What about the official budget?” I said ”Sir, please now. We are right here. I’m telling you something. I am the minister of this church, and the minister of FA011 suburb 1 so don’t you worry, you’re fine.” OK, so I looked, and it’s 300 000 they give us, not 250, they put it up. Then I saw, no man there’s something wrong with the zeroes here …. Three million. I said, “They don’t have to worry about the meeting, let’s just sign this thing – where must I sign?” [10930] So the teachers didn’t want to come back and the principle to a school like that that’s flooding and everything, and I said to the education department, “Now are these your employees?” And they says, “Yes”. “Now does the employees tell you where they want to work or not?” They say, “No, we tell them” “So either you tell them or I’ll find a principle and teachers to teach these children. So they must just say if they want their jobs or not. Have you got them? You do them and I’ll sort this” – and I signed. Oh! They were angry. But afterwards they loved me. They love me now – it’s all right. Now and again. But that’s what we do in the community. I go to Eskom, try and find electricity, I try and get the water written off and stuff so they can get this place revamped. That’s what I do in the community…it’s all …. I can’t do anything…you know, you have to do the basic thing, that’s what I’m trying to tell you – get into all sorts of nonsense to try and help, you know. And I know this is confidential so you can’t
MM: 11030  It is confidential…don’t worry, it’ll be quite secret… And anything in John Wesley’s thought that relates to this community type stuff? What did John Wesley do? Come on, tell me about it 
FA011: 11045  That course that we started, of course, the revolution, that people got saved you know from alcohol abuse and everything I mean you know the clinics and all that stuff that comes from us: schooling, clinics and whatever – it’s social holiness, this. I love it! I can develop this whole community – they must just say to me I must do this, and I’ll do it. No, I’ll just develop the houses…I’ve got plans, I’ve got …I mean I went to…I’ve got plans, literal plans. I got in contact with Cape Town. The areas, the parks, the roads, everything, I’ve got …You see, I told them “It’s flooding – where’s this? Why is that happening? It’s flooding – come clean this stuff – there’s no what do you call it catch pits for the storm waters. I mean those are the things I do, I challenge them: “Why are you doing this to this community?” And till today, unfortunately, I’m held back. I must tell you the truth. I must tell you the truth. Only God’s truth, I’m held back, and by the church. I’m held back. And I’ve got everything in writing – in black and white. It’s a pain. [11149]. It’s something…but anyway, that’s what I do – I continue because I know it’s a Wesleyan theology. We get involved when there’s injustice, we get involved, we try and make a difference, we bring Jesus on the scene. I believe in the ministry of presence, bringing Jesus on the scene.    
MM: 11209  “Bring Jesus on the scene” – I like that very much 
FA011: 11213  Ja, even if you get into trouble. He was crucified, so I pray I don’t get crucified, no not upside down Lord [laughter]  
MM: 11220  OK…question eight. In your opinion, what are the most important factors involved in conversion? How people come to be converted? I think you’ve spoken about this a bit already?
FA011: 11230  I think it’s a dissatisfaction, or an awareness of an incompleteness of the whole self ….. I think every person in this world sits there some day – whether you’re poor or whether you’re wealthy – there’s some emptiness there, something that says there’s more to life than this. I think that that thing, there’s more to life than this, is this what my life’s about? Then am I happy with this? Am I fulfilled? I believe it’s that place where somebody says, “No, man, I need more, something there’s more”. And that computer chip inside of us, that yearning you know, deep calling unto deep, that part, ay-yay-yay. I believe nobody – I don’t care if you’re an atheist it’s my food, intellectualist, philosopher, whatever…the denial of that part of us. I think we don’t have to do too much? The Holy Spirit is still brooding over us. [11330]. I believe he’s working his work. And so in the most simplest forms the Lord has been working prevenient grace, of course, before we ever got to them. So I am a firm believer in that. And I … because I see… remember I said I sit down, anybody can sit down with Jesus as a carrier of his grace, and wow-ee! Isn’t it…Are we not those … my favourite term is a carrier of the Ark of the Covenant… I love that…. I mean, you know Jesus is inside of you, and Jesus comes and sits next to you, you know it! You can’t not know Jesus there. So you walk into a hospital or you just sit somewhere or you just whatever…and if you are aware of that…I think the awareness of that is contagious. And then you bring Jesus on the scene [11431] and anywhere …in church or wherever you are I believe that it……. switches on something inside of another person, says, “Hey, something happened here, I don’t know who it is or what it is but something changed, there’s a wind or something feeling, I’m just feeling something.” And I … this is what I teach people about evangelism because it’s … you don’t always have to say anything, if you understand that he’s inside of you. You walk there and, with all the love in you, you sit there     
MM: 11504  Explain more about “bearers of the ark of the Covenant” – just expound that a bit more?
FA011: 11507  I think, ja, where was I, I get carried away? In “factors of conversion”…. Holy Spirit’s work is evident without us, from the initial prevenient. He works! Scripture says that he’s the one that convicts. It’s nothing really that I’m doing as a person that comes and says OK I want to evangelise the world. All what I do is carry being present in this [indicates herself] because this is the temple of the Holy Spirit , and I walk with this knowing that this is his, the ark of the covenant coming. And when I walk in Jesus…the Holy Spirit …you know what I’m saying? Paul says the one sows the seed, the other waters it, so I just come with my little bit I water or whatever I don’t know but the Lord will, you know, do that. So when I’m there, that’s it. People ask me questions – they don’t even know me. OK, they’ll see my car says “RevS” but OK, that’s if they saw the car  
MM: 11608  It’s my experience as well – people just talk to me. Why do they do that? 
FA011: 11611  You know what I’m saying? So you sit there minding your own business, knowing that you’re there with the Lord. I mean, I’m a soul winner…when I got saved I went door to door. That’s where Jesus taught me, and that’s where he’s sent me, he says “Go”. And every time people…some would say…Moslems or whatever wouldn’t want to open the door and I said, “No I just want to tell you that God loves you” I didn’t [growly voice] “Oh no but we’ve got our own religion – can’t you see on the door?” And I’d say, “No I did see that, but God didn’t say I could pass our house, so I just came to say that Jesus loves you. I just…” They go [squinches face into a sour expression] I just say “It doesn’t matter, but he still loves you” but it doesn’t matter, I says “I just believe in this”. I think it’s easy. It’s so easy to me to walk with who is inside of you – if you know, and if you honour that. I believe that there needs to be this honouring of who God is in our lives every day, and who makes the difference between somebody who will lead somebody to Jesus, otherwise that evangelism question that you asked earlier [11718] ones that are committed are the ones that are more aware and honouring, respecting, reverencing that presence of God in us. You know what I mean? You’re not perfect, yet, but you are striving towards holiness, and I believe we’ve lost that. We’ve lost this whole thing about sin and grace and the boundaries – and pushing it, not knowing…. There is someone that wrote the book, it’s not just the Bible, the Scriptures, it’s someone that wrote for all eternity and he is not a democracy – he doesn’t want anyone else’s opinion or philosophy, he’s just God all by himself. And once we realise he’s God all by himself there is such greatness, you know, that will happen. I believe it’s going to happen in the church. We will follow…I mean we don’t have to follow him [11811] just to be the leaders, but I know, I know we’re igniting …. And I believe that God is   
MM: 11819  Thank you – let’s go on to nine? Question nine: if you think of all the languages and cultures there are, and all the types of people and needs, you know, which of these people is your church evangelising and which people would you like them to evangelise? ….does that make sense as a question? 
FA011: 11838  Yes. Yes. ….. 
MM:  11844 You know, Cape Town is filled with a huge variety of… 
FA011:  11846 Do you mean my society – FA011 suburb 1 Methodist Church? 
MM:  11849 Who are you reaching and who would you like to reach? 
FA011: 11850  Our……mission field is at home. If our mission field wasn’t there and we were in a different set-up. Do you understand? ….Let me explain to you this way because we are on our doorstep this great mission field – it wouldn’t make sense if we were to go to Khayelitsha or to Rondebosch right now. Our need and our situation is that …… to look outside would be some kind of a stupidity because Jesus starts “You shall be my witnesses in Jerusalem, Judea and Samaria…” so our Jerusalem is not yet sorted, we can’t go to Samaria and all the outskirts yet.   
MM: 11940  Some people in the church find themselves, though, in those places during the week …
FA011:11845   Oh no, they are encouraged in their workplaces or in school or whatever to be the witnesses but it will not be something that we will literally organise here and say we want to go outreach into…whatever area that might have a need…  
MM: 11959  So you wouldn’t take a group to Constantia Mall and do an open air?
FA011: 12003  You know, brother, I like, I can preach anywhere, anytime – on the train, whatever! Just tell me before we go!  I’m from FA011 suburb 1 as I told you our situation is that dire that we cannot get out of the streets and the stuff. So for us…for me to say something like that would be … I don’t believe wisdom. How do you say to somebody in a shack that…. or a lady or a person that has to get out of bed with gumboots, so the gumboots is on your bed. And you have to get out there and your bed is high up on the whatsanames, just to warm in that and the water’s this high…How do I tell you now to come with me to …. [long tongue-tied pause] …or you don’t even have food in your home but I’m gonna …[chuckle] You know maybe it could be a good idea to get a food story to go and give food to other people? But ja, at this stage of our work, of our life, in FA011 suburb 1 people like to say [12107] I feel like we are the whole – how do you call it? – we are too secluded and I go ”I beg to differ – come there. Come there and you tell me how many people are going to be moved to do that?” I can do that. Easily. I don’t live in FA011 suburb 1, I live in FE011 suburb 5. Eight minutes away from the church. But if I have to live in that context 
MM: 12137  If there’s no burning tyres 
FA011: 12138  Yes, if there’s no burning tyres, otherwise then I’m stuck there or whatever you know. But … in the wisdom and understanding that God gives me now already even meetings and other things called by the bishop or superintendent, FA011 suburb 1 people are saying … you know what, they don’t really care about us. … So…what must I go do there? My neighbours doesn’t have food. That child doesn’t have school clothes. We’re going to fundraise here to see to that one, we’re not going there and there because it doesn’t make sense: you start at home. You can’t go give somebody food outside when your children are crying for bread. You can’t do that. 
MM: 12221  I hear you 
FA011:12223   And it’s not understood in our context – it’s not understood by the wider ….. it’s not understood, it’s not.. you know what…that’s all I can understand you’re literally treading and kind of surviving? It’s not easy… it … and if I talk about it everybody goes khrr [grinding shut sound] closed. Because they’re tired of hearing this story. But what can I say? That’s the truth. 
MM: 12251  Shoh! Question ten. What sort of evangelism do you consider that outsiders find the most persuasive? Maybe people who aren’t Methodists? Or people who aren’t Christian? What makes it most persuasive? You’ve addressed this …you’ve spoken about this as we’ve gone 
FA011: 12321  I believe, seriously, that the sort of evangelism that the world, or the people that are unchurched, or even church people that are not Methodist or whatever … I believe a real spirituality of …. God showing up ……… I think the church out there or the church wherever and whatever the church is preaching – if that’s not real, if it doesn’t come home to people and …not just make sense but touches them in a real tangible way, then it is dead, a “dead sect”. I like that thing of John Wesley, he says “I don’t fear that the people called Methodist will cease to exist but that they will only exist in the form of a dead sect”. And that to me in every church, not just the Methodist church, I believe the presence of God is real. I’m a very…I believe in the experiential …. faith. That I believe our faith is from Genesis, when God visited us in the garden It was tangible, it was real. Right through, when God came. He doesn’t come every day, of course, not the way that we want him to, but there are those moments, then you [12436] really know that God is there. God was there listening. So if there unchurched people outside sitting there and you don’t know the presence of God and you don’t know the Holy Spirit, you don’t walk in the presence of the Holy Spirit, and even the gifts that God gave to the church, how will you know? I mean there’s been many times in my life that I just felt led to tell some lady or somebody, “You know what, I know this and this and this is what your husband and your child said to you this morning but let me tell you what God says” … and I’m talking real, I’m … telling serious… there’s a lady – I just want to give you an example – we had a leaders’ meeting on the twentieth of May, I’m just giving you an example of that. She … she could have been anybody else besides a leader [12522] or person in our church, because this could happen to anybody in my understanding and in my experience with people. So we want to end off the leaders’ meeting and everything but this girl she didn’t look right, from beginning to end – you know, there’s something about her that was not happy or something amiss with her …But anyway, I kept on trying to avoid because this is a leaders’ meeting and in the end I just wanted to say the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and go home, you know kind of thing – we were long there and everybody wanted to go home. Then all of a sudden I’m holding her hand and I feel the presence of God, like … I can’t close, I just looked at her. And I can’t tell everybody else but I said to her, “Is it OK if we pray…pray with you” So I started praying and I looked at, you know Karen, I told you about, I looked at her and thought “You must know what’s going on here” because I can feel that God wants to do something with this lady  [12618] Prayed, prayed, you know, about five minutes or so of prayer, you know just “Thank you Lord that you love her and warra-warra”. I see these shoe-boxes …shoe boxes, just shoe-boxes, boxes. I said to her, “I’m so sorry, but I believe that God is saying you must let go of the shoe-boxes”. I said, “I see you as a nine year old girl or whatever and you’re bending down on the ground and you are picking flowers – it’s wild flowers and you’re picking it up. I don’t know what does it mean because he’s not telling me but all I’m saying is that God is healing that parts of your life right now.”  She just said “O my God” you know, …. She said right there “Do you know that I actually have so much shoes, and the boxes I have used to store things in the garage so high up that my husband is telling me, “You know, you really need to get a grip on this.” And then I said, “Why are you there?” And she says, “I went there when I was that age. I remember [12720] the first flowers, because I was crying because my mother…my mom and dad was getting a divorce and we had to testify in…we had to go speak to the judge.” And I said, “the Lord is healing…” Now I’m saying…people…not every...we are saying as Methodists, not everybody….I don’t know what….I really don’t know what people are saying because I’m confused, I don’t know why they are saying that…The gifts of God and the Holy Spirit  - the Lord says, “If I give you the Spirit … why will a father, if the child asks you for bread, will give you a stone? Why will he if you ask for a fish give you a serpent?” The Lord wants to touch…we had Pentecost week – he wants to reach the world through his church, and everybody, all the priesthood of all believers … whatever it is, whether it is administration, whether it’s just being nice to people – whatever it is just use that gift wherever you are. Outsiders will find that persuasive [12821] … It doesn’t always have to be power and this and that it can just be a plain and simple voice, something that says “I just want to tell you that you look nice today, that God loves you so much”. And I just want to say sometimes stuff looks so bad in the world, look at that, but I know that God can change, he can protect the children. I just know that. Hah! You don’t have to have some word of wisdom or knowledge or something all the time     
MM: 12852  And what do outsiders find the most sort of objectionable? What do they find offensive. What are some of the things we might do in evangelism
FA011: 12901  Ooh, judgemental … a judgemental… people are not taught … you know, the kind of thing that I’m trying to teach people about making a disciple not just a believer. Not taught to have wisdom … in how to speak. You know that EE3 thing is a very good thing – it teaches you how to speak to people, how to get a conversation going without being, you know…and don’t push it! Don’t even….I mean I don’t even push it all the time: “Do you know Jesus as your Lord and Saviour?” you know I don’t even go that far. I believe somebody watered, somebody does this, and whatever…I’m going to do know is just be there. I’m not gonna push it. If the Lord doesn’t tell me, I won’t do it. I don’t go about “OK pray with me now” or whatever all the time. No. … You know I think you just must be present … You don’t know. I mean …. I think the church is  at the most exciting time, for “such a time as this”. We’re only seeing the problem. Why? Because we’re [13002] powerless. We haven’t got zeal, we don’t know who we are. We don’t even know that God speaks, or God is powerful, God is working without me, he’s just inviting me to be part of that  
MM: 13015  You’ve said something like that a couple of times – this is significant
FA011: 13018  I think ja, the church is making it difficult for itself
MM: 13024  What do you think made John Wesley so successful as an evangelist? 
FA011: 13026  Aah! Mmmm! Oh boy! He was baptised with the fire of the Holy Spirit. His conversion was the beginning, and … he actually in many of his works makes a very clear distinction between conversion and baptism in the Holy Spirit. In fact baptism in the Holy Spirit is a Methodist terminology that we coined first – did you know that? We coined that first. We coined that first and there’s no such thing as a non-Pentecostal or non-charismatic child of God – or Methodist. So I think Wesley was in that era something he went with it…he had a hunger and a zeal for God. I think we stop in our box, we are OK, we’re fine, we’ve got it made…and if we’ve figured God out then you have a problem. We’ve figured God out…I believe we’ve figured him out. We know what is right or wrong for God. I don’t think that’s what God thinks. And Wesley was…he pushed all the buttons…I think the Anglican church had a real tough time with that guy. [13131] That’s what made him different. I think he hungered for God, he wanted the best of God, he wanted all of God that he could get. And that flowed out of his life, a real love for God, and they ….that your love for God and your neighbour will make you pursue God more and love people even more you know – I think that great love for people and their souls and how do I make a difference in the world that is in pain, dying? How do I make a difference? And that’s what he did – he did it in all spheres. Now we want to do all the outreaches, all the nice things, all the food, all the clothes or whatever – leaving out the other part of it. That becomes a humanistic view. It’s not a Christian view [13222]. Do you know what I mean? I believe we’ve become more humanist. There’s no distinction between the church many times and the world also have all these organisations to do good, I mean they do better than us as far as works are concerned. But I believe we’ve lost the power of God that makes the difference in the soul, the package is not wrapped in the presence. You can quote me on that. The package is not wrapped in the presence.   
MM: 13257  I’m now getting to my last question. And I’m really grateful to you  for your candid answers – I’m loving this and it’s going to be really, really helpful. Is there any budget allocation for people and outsiders … you know…what sort of money gets spent on outsiders…and finances I hear are an issue… but I’m interested. I’m asking this question over a range of churches and I’m interested in the answers I’m getting 
FA011: 13332  OK… We are financially in a situation … currently … however, we believe that even if we don’t have people have priority. So even if we don’t have, we will pay that thousand rand so that the person can go to rehab. No negotiable. It’s our seed, and whether we call it a tithe or giving to the Lord or whatever it is something that must happen. The soup kitchens are also ones that must happen…children that don’t have shoes at school, people that don’t have clip cards, that don’t have clip cards, bus tickets, to get to school, that’s our responsibility, we will give a food parcel to a needy person and we recognise that that’s a priority. We don’t, we don’t what do you call it…compromise on that. The electricity cannot be paid, the assessment cannot be paid, but that is budgeted for. [13428]. Because I’ve experienced the reasons why: number one, it’s the heart of Jesus. Number two, I find that God opens the windows of heaven in obedience to what he said. He will help the poor, and he loves the poor. So I have found that if we don’t do that there is a dip in finances. I have found that God is true to his word. I believe that. And if I haven’t been faithful in tithing, me as the minister, I find that spilling over, big time. Then I go “Oh Jesus, but you know Lord that before I could just transfer that thing and that debit orders went off.” I’m in a tight position myself but I do,,, I must say to you, I believe that if ministers can start tithing or giving [13525] to God what belongs to God, we will have…because I believe that scripture where the Bible says the oil flows from Aaron’s head down. And if it’s here, that we have a problem here, by the head [indicating her own head] by the ministry…and that’s why we are what we are today.  
MM: 13548  I hear you. Thank you very much, ja. Last …last sort of sub-question. This is a sort of a fantasy question. Imagine that someone gives you R10,000 and says “Spend this on evangelism”. How would you spend it?  
FA011: 13606  Wow! That would be something. OK… I would hire about three taxis – or maybe a bus would be too formal… three taxis…fifteen people each… And take some of our youth and I would pick up some of the people in FA011 suburb 1, the young people, children, whatever, I’d take to a beach. And then I will go to one of the restaurants there and I’ll splash that money out on them… they … 
MM:  13642 What would you buy? 
FA011: 13643  I’m very good at that. I’d go to Spur, although I’d be worried if they’re going to spit in some of the food, but I mean I used to go to Spur. I’d order all the starters, that’s the cheapest way to go – I did that before, I took the youth to Spur…. And order the starters, that’s the cheapest way to go. Order so much starters and make them full, and then order either the milkshakes or that fruit shake. They won’t… they get so full with that they won’t ask for another drink after that … and then… Because some of our children and young people have never ever been to a restaurant. Ever.… I was told by the Lord to take about three boys, after youth, half past nine, ten o’clock the evening I rocked up with them by the house…I asked their parents if I could take them to a restaurant. They go “What Rev?” I go “Yes. The Lord told me to take them.” And I didn’t know, when we came there, [13743] what …the eldest brother said to me “Rev, I don’t know how to order stuff” And they was the same and I side fine, order whatever, whatever, So they looked like and he says to me “You don’t know but we’ve never, ever, ever in our life… the one guy was twenty two already, OK, and his brothers the one was about seventeen and the other I’m not sure was he nineteen? Can you imagine? Can you imagine? And then I will splash…I mean if they’re still showing The Shack we’ll go to a movie, and I’ll blast all that money and in the end, we could the next week, I’ll have a nice chat about The Shack, and about life, and then we’ll…ja. But I would like to take them out. And I won’t talk about Jesus at all – I won’t talk about the Lord at all. And I know, that’s how you catch fish….that’s how you catch fish. Actually, we have this thing, the District gave us some money – we couldn’t do it at the hall [13843] of the school because we need an alarm system and we need burglar bars on the one side before we buy a snooker table and darts or whatever because that’s what we want… a coffee bar or whatever – I don’t want preaching, I don’t want nothing like that. I just want the young people there. I want to play dominoes, even if I’m not there, one of us, just to help and then we’ll teach them snooker or whatever-whatever. I just want them to have nice music – it doesn’t have to be gospel…I just want, you know, the people to sit there and check these children out. I’ll…after about three months I’ll preach to them. That’s all. I just want them to know that we’re OK, do you know what I mean? And some of them just talk about God anyway, without me saying so… I’m looking forward to the R10,000, thank you very much!   
MM: 13934  Lord God you’ve got the cattle on a thousand hills – just sell three cows!  
FA011: 13940  Amen! 
MM: 13940  Well I want to say thank you very much for the help. That’s it for today, thank you. I will take that and think about it seriously. Thank you for your help 
17438 words
2017-03-08 ME012
Age 59
ME012 suburb 1 Methodist; ME012 suburb 2 Methodist
MM: 00.00 I am in conversation with ME012 of ME012 suburb 1 Methodist Church. The date is the sixth of the sixth, 2016 [that is what I said – but I was wrong  2017]. ME012, thank you very much for agreeing to talk to me about evangelism. And I’d like you just to talk about what’s on the top of your mind, the top of your heart. There’s no “correct” answer. There’s just your experience….So, first of all, can you tell me about any evangelism that happens in your local church or involves your congregation members in any way? 
ME012: 0050  ….we have different programs that we run occasionally, so we run things like…recently we’ve run Alpha courses. They are quite small in number and I must say that any evangelism that happens is probably more on a …the friendship basis….of inviting friends to church, to church events, sharing a little bit of faith with folk. So it’s a lot more on a personal relationship basis than a structured basis. … But we have run things like Alpha and occasionally different courses that we run where we try to invite folk and share faith with them through …not always an evangelism program – it could be the Lenten series…but it’s sharing faith where we try to use our opportunities to share faith with folk, ja. 
MM:  0206  Tell me a bit about how Alpha works in church?
ME012: 0217  Um….I’m being recorded hey?
MM:  0218  Don’t worry, it’ll all be anonymised
ME012: 0221  Not all that well in some ways, I think…It’s run by the laity of the church here, folk in our church who run it. A small group of folk and they run it for whatever, I don’t know how many weeks it is – between ten and thirteen weeks. And they use the video format. So they show the videos, they invite people to the supper – well, first to the introductory evening, which explains what the course will be about and then encourage folk to join up and then they come along during that time. There’s always a fallout, so our last course we only had about ten people. But for me I try and encourage them to say that for me it’s not about the numbers but it’s about rather those that are willing to be there. …This church has run a number of them before I arrived here [0327] and basically went through the whole of the existing church membership. So that’s often what these programs do. And so for me the focus has been trying to encourage them to reach outside of our church. So they advertise quite widely and probably half of the folk that came, came from outside of our church…but ja
MM:  0347  OK. That’s more than some Alpha Courses that I’ve heard tell about
ME012: 0350  Ja, ja…I think that’s all the initially do is go through the church membership 
MM:   0359 OK….and can you perhaps tell me some stories about people who have experienced conversion in your local church?
ME012: 0407  You know, it’s interesting, I must say. I think …..[long pause]….there’s not a lot of story-telling of conversion experiences here 
MM:  0427  This is important data, because different ….the concept may…you know…I’m trying to get a handle on the concept, and it’s….
ME012: 0437  There is an….ongoing struggle for me in that …. I sound very cynical, but I think that there’s a large club mentality about church life here. Rather than reaching out to communities it’s felt that people must just come here and we must have a nice service on Sundays with nice hymns and songs. And I think perhaps we’ve all lost the urgency for evangelism. ….. Occasionally folk have come to faith, but it’s been a very individual, personal thing, and folk have spoken to me about it. But it’s not….like altar calls – occasionally I will make …we try to make…what we have every Sunday we have people available at the back of the church for prayer.    
MM:  0545  OK, that’s interesting
ME012:  0547 So we say to people if you have a need for prayer for anything … And so we’ve had I know I can say about three folk who have responded to Christ, and asked folk to pray for them at the back for that, specifically. So that’s the only thing…We have had a few opportunities for folk to come forward and pray in services, but it’s mostly around church Sundays that evangelism happens. There’s no evangelism like outside of that. We have Bible study groups that meet and some  invitations, but that’s about it 
MM:  0628  How does conversion work? What do people change from? Are these people who are already involved in Methodism or are they people from completely outside…and what do they change to? What sort of transaction is happening here?
ME012: 0649  OK…so for folk that do come here I’d say that most of them probably arrive as new in the community – so they’ve moved home here – and they are looking for a church or something, or they visit .. they have a need and arrive …Many of them have from a church experience but they’re occasionally, one or two of them from no church background. Recently we had a young couple, no church background, who arrived and they made a commitment…and the follow-up works in terms of the folk who are praying with them make contact with them and try to bring them into one of the existing groups.  So that’s how we do it at the moment. We’ve looked at other forms of follow up, but at the moment  it’s simply a follow up of saying “Let’s get you connected to a group and the group makes sure that you are being cared for”….and whatever. So it’s not an individual follow up [0743] but rather a sense of belonging somewhere. That’s how we do it here. 
MM:  0753  Ja….and by the way I’m grateful for you and your church for looking after my daughter and son-in-law, through the small group they belong to
ME012:  0802 OK….ja….they’re not so effective in some cases but in some cases they are 
MM:  0808  Ja…in the last five years – and this is question three – in the last five years would you estimate that your congregation has grown, staid more or less the same, or shrunk in numbers?
ME012:  0818 In the last five years? … I think we have shrunk in numbers ... well, I know we have shrunk in numbers…and you want to know why, of course! Ja, I think a number of reasons. We have (will it pick me up from here?) The one is that we had a person working here on our staff who then engaged with another church, was involved with the youth work and took a whole group of folk along … Or influenced them, didn’t take them – maybe that’s unfair. But a lot of them ended up in the same church. And I think some of the churches relate far better to young people than we do – to certain young people [0918]. Our church has a particular – how can I say – approach? That sometimes young folk do feel excluded by it if they want a particular style, so we don’t relate…um … ja… and one or two have left, one or two, some of the older folk have also left because we changed the worship style here at the later service…. So they went and found a church that only did hymns for instance, with an organ. But that’s fine. So that’s happened, that we’ve lost a 
MM:  1004  And people that come in? How do they come into the church… I think you said people move into the area
ME012:  1012 I think that mostly our growth in number has been those who visit because they’ve moved to the area, or they come with friends, from other areas. … and then they find that this is a place where they can relate, and they grow. Probably a couple of growth areas in the last two years, two to three years in particular, have been through advertising through social media. And through the change of our Sunday evenings format. So we have tried to engage two areas. The one is through telling stories   
MM:  1055  I’m strangely interested! [laughter]
ME012: 1057  Called “Sacred Stories”, and that started two or three years ago now. The evening service was dying. Basically there were about seven or eight people …so we started a thing on the first Sunday of the month where we get people to share their story. We sort of have rules that I try and explain at the beginning and just remind folk that their story is their story and we acknowledge that God has worked in different ways, so we need to hear that. We’re not here to judge their story but rather to learn from their story, so we don’t question the story – we only ask questions if we want to clarify anything. We get very different types of story   
MM:  1138  OK…it must be fascinating
ME012: 1139  It’s absolutely brilliant – I love it. And then on the second Sunday in the evening we have what is called focal point conversation…so we get speakers who facilitate conversation around relevant issues for folk today – public issues…violence...we’ve looked at violence, all those things. And we have found that social media adverts, people advertising on social media [indistinct phrase] that we people as far as…atheists coming from as far away as Hout Bay to hear something here… and folk coming because they’re interested in the topic, not in the Christian perspective of the topic… and so “white privilege” drew a few people into that discussion. Ja… and so I’ve even been invited to a group here in ME012 suburb 1, a little closed group that invited us to discuss some of the things we’ve been raising here. And one of them is an atheist there.   
MM:  1257  That is very interesting, because how does a church relate to an atheist? And so you’ve just shown me a little bridge 
ME012: 1304  So there are ways I think of … and it’s totally real. The whole idea is to have the conversation about the issue and respond from a…and so we don’t apologise that we say “What is the Jesus way?” and all these things. But we recognise that some people may just want to engage it from a human perspective. So they’re willing to come in and they’re willing to tolerate [laughter] the Christian discussion – but they want to hear a human perspective 
MM: 1335   And the Christians are willing to tolerate a…
ME012: 1337  Sometimes, ja [laughter] 
MM:  1339  I just ask the question!
ME012:  1341 Generally, ja, our folk have been quite good in hosting that 
MM:  1351  On the topic of membership, do you have some people that attend occasionally, very occasionally, but still consider themselves to be members  of your church?
ME012:  1400 Ja, you know the whole thing of Methodist membership and adherents and everyone’s got their own understanding of membership. So we do have our core membership who worship regularly. We have folk who worship on an occasional basis, you know, we might not see them for two months, and then they come for a few weeks and so on. And then of course we have folks who we might see at the festivals – Christmas and Easter and so on. But it’s difficult at times to understand the membership because there are a number of folk who I won’t see for a while and I’ll contact them and there’s no particular reason why they’re not coming – they’re not angry or upset or anything, they’re just like that…so we have that…   
MM:  1452  This is starting to generate quite a lot of interesting insight because the as I ask the ministers….
ME012:  1458 I do think there’s also a generational thing. Where I see younger families where it’s not a thing that you go to church every Sunday…they’re very…followers of Jesus, you know…but Sunday and family time takes precedence over worship time.   
MM:  1524  How would you describe your congregation – this is question four – in terms of languages, culture mix, and socio-economic factors?
ME012: 1532  OK, so that’s quite an interesting one…I’d say we probably have churches within churches because of our congregations and different time slots …so our eight o’clock is very much the traditional white, Methodist community. But with one or two, or three or four, or five or six folk that are black or coloured South African. Our ten o’clock is more mixed – still predominantly white but we have a mixture … and we have, what’s interesting, is that some of our families who belong to us joined us because of the xenophobic attacks, when was it? In 2010? They were housed here and some of the families have just stayed on here, about five families, they’ve been members of our church since then. And they bring their … occasionally family members move down to South Africa [1633].    
MM:  1636  Where? What countries are we talking about?
ME012: 1637  We’re talking about the DRC, mostly, but Malawi, and Zimbabwe…those three…I would say that most of them come from those three … er ...a…one from Angola. So…but those families all came from the DRC but since then we have families from other … so … 
MM:  1702  This is an emerging pattern I’m seeing
ME012: 1704  In fact if I look at our Sunday School, which is quite small ..twenty kids on a Sunday…probably ten to fifteen of them can be from other African countries…so that’s become almost like a special ministry, ja… So languages? English … isiXhosa [attempt at click]…. Swahili…French. Mostly upper economic, upper middle socio-economic category…some very, very poor. And so we do have a thing called blessing box ministry where we have folk bringing groceries and it gets distributed to about four families in our church. On a Sunday they just quietly come in another door and take groceries out…because we found one of our members landed up in hospital because he hadn’t eaten for five days. [1808]. …so, ja, we have quite a range of culture and that
MM:  1818  In view of that, what would you say to a preacher coming to preach at your ten o’clock service for the first time? What advice would you give him or her?
ME012:  1828 [ten second pause]….I guess I’d try and encourage him…we do two things…we try and have the children in for the first part of church, but we’re combined …and I do try and make a point of saying, particularly at the ten o’clock, but for all our services, make a point of being inclusive as much as you can. So for instance at ten o’clock when I’m leading worship, even though we do not have many in number, I always try and do one song in Xhosa…for me it’s just a way I’ve been trying to get … I taught them one Swahili song – I’m trying to get more – but I … we can’t do French and that – it’s too difficult. … 
MM:  1921  Parl’ pas Francaise?
ME012: 1923   I would love us to be engaging more, but we’re not, we’re not. But I intentionally try and do…we don’t have many Xhosa songs but I try and do one regularly just as a matter of inclusion. So I would ask her to do that … 
MM:  1942  OK, question five…Do you teach people about evangelism? And if so, what aspects do you emphasize?
ME012: 1950  No, I don’t. … I am not an evangelist. I think I’m an evangelical in a broader sense, not a thing…I teach people to….Well it depends on what you mean by evangelism I guess….I would define people as, I would define evangelism these days….I worked for Youth For Christ and I had a different view, I was out to save the world, I believe now that Jesus does that, not me anymore.  So my view is that we never find God, but God finds us…and so what happens is for me is that the moment of revelation is when we discover that God has loved us all the time, we just know it…for me, that’s evangelism. So I encourage my people to talk about Jesus in natural terms [2049]. To share faith in an easy conversational manner …not to make it an engagement of trying to change people’s lives, but rather sharing what happened in their life. Not even with the idea in mind that you are going to convert somebody. But just talking about what God’s done. And then if God decides to (and now I’m sounding Calvinist), but if at that moment people respond
MM:  2116  I don’t mind, I don’t mind [laughter] I’m anonymising everything
ME012:  2120 If at… for me the whole thing of friendship evangelism, a more natural process of faith being every day and real 
MM:   2132 Sounds as if you’ve got an idea of evangelism that you don’t want, and an idea of evangelism that you do want
ME012: 2140  Yes. I think the program thing for me …the thing of come to Jesus, be saved, and all your troubles will go away has gone out the door and was part of what I grew up with, a real conservative approach of …My evangelism, my belief now is that it’s … the role of the Christian community sharing their faith, sharing love, that helps others to discover that God is a God of love, not a God to be feared, not an avoidance of hell, and escape to heaven – but rather about fullness of life now and discovering that. And so that’s what I encourage folk to share and ja…so that’s my approach to evangelism.
MM:  2236  You’ll notice that I leave it open, the question, because I’m wanting to find what your working definition is. 
ME012: 2244  I do believe, though, that it does require … evangelism…. Now how can I put this?.... The Christian faith does require us to respond in some way, to choose to follow Christ, to be Jesus’ followers, so I don’t think everybody’s now saved, whatever…I do believe that there is … either a place or a process by which we respond to Christ’s call, and we choose to live the Christ-life 
MM:  2320  Now this loving, conversational approach to evangelism…is there anything in John Wesley that you consciously draw on when you’re thinking about that or talking about it?
ME012: 2330  Ja…um….I think for me one of the things …there are two things I always keep in mind. The one is those four things, you know – all people can be saved….all people need to be saved, all people can be saved, all people can know that they are saved,  and all people can be saved to the uttermost. The emphasis in my early days was on the third one: all people can know they are saved, the assurance of salvation was a big, big thing. That no longer is the case. I think for me it’s now more the fourth perspective. All people can be saved to the uttermost. Because I think often people live with this guilt and this feeling they’ve still got to do more and whatever, and it’s almost for me I try to say that’s almost like works, and saying but Christ has saved you, it’s not your response even that saves you, but it’s Christ [2429] that saves you. So that’s been an emphasis, saying to people, don’t live with guilt. You are forgiven. Rather live with seeking to live in that fullness of God. That’s the one thing. And the second thing I think is the practice often of encouraging folk to … when they want to respond…to respond, but to come back the next day. Almost so that it’s not an emotional but rather it’s a very clear decision of the will – to say “I’m choosing to follow Christ” not ah yes it’s an emotional high now…rather a cognitive response 
MM: 2507   That’s a very interesting response
ME012: 2510  So I always encourage folk to respond now, but then let’s…that’s why the groups…that first week they go to a group and belong and firstly work out what that means for you.  
MM: 2522   I can see that – a process, a sort of conscious process
ME012:  2526 Ja, otherwise we’re all just swept up with the…the emotional side is important – I recognise that – but I don’t think…too often it’s just like I make a response and then that’s it, you know or whatever… 
MM:  2538  OK, Ja… Are some members of your regularly attending congregation more involved in this evangelism that you describe, than others?
ME012: 2546  O ja, absolutely 
MM:   2548 Why is that?
ME012: 2550  For me look I think some of it is to do with my understanding of spiritual gifts. I think some people are just gifted in sharing faith. I have some folk for whom sharing faith is just a natural process…I feel they have a way of explain faith so clearly and simply to others, that it makes sense – and others flounder and fumble and can’t explain their faith as simply… Others are driven by the passion, because of their love for God…they don’t want anyone else to lose out. Some are driven by what for me I would say are the negative aspects of faith – they’ve got to save the world…whatever, you know…worried about people going to hell and telling me about death-bed repentances ….thank goodness that….But for many I would say here – I think there are very few like that – I think for many here, those that do (and I would say it’s not many) but there are a few that are very, very, so specifically filled with God’s love that they …can’t help sharing. They share it with their children, their family, whatever…they talk about it they invite people to something exciting happening at church or else at other churches or whatever. 
MM:   2715 OK,,,ja…What do you think…how do people get to that point of this love of God that seems to spill over? Any options…I mean I’m not asking a question that I think I know the answer to…
ME012:  2740 Ja, that’s interesting, There’re just some people I just …when I’m in their presence I feel like I’ve met with God, you know….they just have this enormous capacity to live in grace and offer mercy and love...ja….Why? Well for me I mean it’s obvious that they’re very open to…they’re in a very meaningful relationship with Christ. Why some more than others? I suppose …look, it may be personality types and so extraverts tend to show more…you know 
MM:   2818 It might be a non-question
ME012:  2820 Ja, I’m just thinking if extraverts do show more…are more expressive. But some of them are not extraverts…they’re quite introverts...so it’s not just …I wouldn’t say it’s just personality profiles, because that would be wrong. There’s some very introverted people who still…and some can do it very quietly – so it’s not always with words. You know that whole thing of preach love, or whatever, and use words if necessary – I can’t remember who said that, but it’s…there’re some folk who are…when you’re with them you’re drawn into the relationship they have with God…ja…I don’t know if that answers it at all 
MM:   2905 No, no it does, you know…these are open-ended questions and I’m just interested in putting it all together eventually. Does your church take responsibility for situations in the world that are not directly related to your church life? If so, what sort of responsibility does your church have towards society in general?
ME012: 2927  This one fascinates me about … about our church. I’ve got two churches, actually – I’ve got ME012 suburb 1 and I’ve got ME012 suburb 2….a little church there which is very different to ME012 suburb 1 
MM:  2937  I have preached at ME012 suburb 2  …. t
ME012: 2945  I preached there last Sunday…I love being there. It’s very different….ME012 suburb 1 is a strange church, in that I get very frustrated – and you are deleting this when you’ve recorded all of it - 
MM:   3000 I’m anonymising!
ME012:  3002 Anonymising…. I get very frustrated because I feel that people here are sometimes cut off from the reality of the world around us. And yet when there’s a need expressed they jump to a response. But the response is often very, very generous in the sharing of resources, but not engaging of self. So creating clothes, foodstuff, when there’s a fire anywhere I can just put in the bulletin, we’re overcome with stuff…people will give money or whatever; and they really are concerned and they will pray or whatever…but they won’t even travel to ME012 suburb 6, to go into ME012 suburb 6. But they will give incredibly generously. Sometimes I get the feeling that some folk are giving more than out of their excess, a lot more [3101] actually giving things that they are going to sacrifice something to give that … so the response is there’s a real heart that feels the anguish and pain of others, but a reluctance to physically engage outside of…it’s almost like a discomfort? Or a comfort within…I’m not sure. I don’t want to over-analyse it or anything …and so yes, responding to situations in the world, absolutely …praying, giving, sharing…I try to talk about we don’t give to help others, we share of our resources in the body and so on. So...does that?  
MM:  3154  Yes, that makes a lot of sense…any cognates again with John Wesley? Because obviously I’m reading John Wesley alongside 
ME012:  3201 I tend to follow Jesus more than John, I’m sorry 
MM:    Aah! [laughter]
ME012:  3206 I’m sorry but I’m more of a Jesus nut than a John nut 
MM:  3210  I’m pleased to hear it [laughter]
ME012: 3212  Ja I think in terms of probably the concepts of caring for those most in need …. I try and preach a lot on … and I …. And obviously we follow a tradition where we preach on that we don’t own anything, that it’s only lent to us …and Wesley’s example of  the more he got…what were those principles again, of resources, of money…save all you can, gain all you can, give all you can. So there is a lot of that here, that does happen. It’s a very generous community. When there’s need there’s immediate response…and there is a concern about those who are struggling, there is a deep concern 
MM:   3316 You talked about your “blessing box”
ME012: 3320  Ja, if we raise anything like that there’s always a response
MM:  3328  Going on to conversion, in question eight…In your opinion, what are the most important factors involved in conversion? 
ME012: 3335  In my opinion what are the most important factors involved in conversion? …[long pause] … in conversion… 
MM:  3348  I know they’re dreadfully open-ended…
ME012: 3350  Ja, I know…I’m just trying to think how to say it. I think … one, a recognition … that we need Christ. …Secondly, a desire…or not even a desire, even…I’m trying to think of the words…a willingness to follow, and be led by God, by God’s Spirit, by Jesus … and so to be willing to change values …and, and…. Desires…to, to become more Christ-like. [3453]. Which for me is the life-long journey. It works well I see in other people’s lives sometimes   
MM:  3503  Would it be fair to say that some people are more converted than others? …or is that a…?
ME012: 3510  I don’t like measures [laughter] like that. But in some I see the fruit of the Spirit more evident than in others. 
MM: 3518   That’s sort of what I’m probing for…
ME012: 3522  Ja…I do see some people exhibiting the fruit of the Spirit in a far clearer way than I see in my own life, often. And in the life of others, I guess…But again, I think…but again I think for me it’s a differentiating between gift and fruit…I don’t think everybody’s gifts are the same or whatever, but everybody has the fruit of the Spirit. Some just seem to exhibit more love or grace or self control or whatever than others  
MM:  3610  ja…and any way in which John Wesley’s teaching or example relates to this? I’m just fishing around for Wesleyan things as well…
ME012:  3622 OK, ja….. ja… suppose  that whole thing of  …for me, where membership of the church about this is quite important for me is that the Methodist Church, we still hold to the value you’re welcomed into the church anyone who desires in themselves to be save from sins in Christ. And evidences the same in life and conduct. And so there is a sense of not just saying “I believe in Jesus”, but my life and my conduct being shaped as a follower of Christ by the values of Christ.  That’s what we’re trying to do here with our Sunday evenings and so on, we’re saying “It’s fine to say we believe in a God of peace – well, how are we peacemakers then?” So I think the important thing about conversion for me is that I’m quite pragmatic about – you cannot share faith, you cannot share love if you’re not seeking to live it out. It’s not [3728] a head knowledge or a theological understanding, it’s a life lived. And so conversion for me is that there’s got to be a change, there’s got to be a transformation. From selfishness to selflessness, OK so it’s …. it’s a journey – it’s not a one-off thing. It is a conscious decision to go on a journey 
MM:  3804  ….It’s fascinating, isn’t it. I find the whole topic like almost inscrutable and huge, but actually yet there is so much that I’m learning 
ME012: 3824  I’m feeling totally out of my depth here because you’re asking guys who know what they’re talking about… these questions… who’ve read a lot more and who know a lot more, but anyway… 
MM:  3930  [laughter] No, believe me, you’re holding your own, you’re holding your own! You know, typically a long pause...and a hmmm…you know [laughter] That’s very typical of this conversation. Right, now, question nine. If you think of all the languages and cultures there are and all the types of people and needs in Cape Town, which of these people is your church evangelising – and we use your understanding of evangelising for this – and which people would you like them to evangelise? Are there people who are off-limits? You say people don’t go to ME012 suburb 6…
ME012:  3907 Ja, OK, so I think who we’re evangelising is people in our immediate surrounds…so it’s very much…besides, and literally I could count on my one hand, those that want us to go outside of our surrounds. So there’s a strong, strong sense that we are a church in ME012 suburb 1 so must serve the people here. And that’s interestingly enough come to me not just from the elderly but from the young people too. I’ve never felt this at any other church I’ve served at as here, ja. 
MM:   3950 I think it’s a ME012 suburb 1 thing?
ME012: 3952  I think it’s a Cape thing. I felt it a bit at Bellville but particularly in ME012 suburb 1 we’re here to serve the people of ME012 suburb 1. And every year when we do our leaders’ thing and we look at our mission statement or whatever the first thing they come back with is “How are we serving ME012 suburb 1 people?” And I recognise that is important, we are a local church, we have to do that….but …for me it’s always Jerusalem-Judea-Samaria-the-ends-of-the-earth [said very quickly]. And for me with budget I say, I even try and say “In your tithing, try and split it 25% to each area of mission. That’s been my focus wherever I’ve been…I’ve not got it right in ME012 suburb 1. So I say we give 25% towards mission, 25% to where we look at Africa, 25% to Southern Africa, 25%... That’s the sort of patterns I’ve used
MM:   4052 That’s a very interesting approach…
ME012: 4055  Oh? You’ve never heard it before? 
MM:  4101  Not among Methodist ministers…I’m not supposed to tell you but…
ME012: 4105  I grew up among…No, Youth for Christ was my background, and I’ve got a missions background at …but here I really struggled. Occasionally, where there’s need, but it’s not a practice just to give to mission….so most of the evangelising and thing happens within our context ….I would like us, in terms of evangelism, to be engaging particularly …. Sensitively …. To … not to an area but to people whose need is greatest. So … those that are broken… and they can be from the top socio-economic category to the lowest one. But to those who… - recognising that we are all broken – but for those …ja, so…I don’t know. So recently we started running, AA asked if they could use our building – I was very excited about that – because it’s a place where they recognise they have an addiction issue. So their people, now I’m trying to engage with them to do the cross over and so on
MM: 4227   OK….it’ll be nice to have an AA meeting – I think that feels right for a church. Um…and again, anything in John Wesley’s thought that’s relevant to evangelism of the local church in its context? 
ME012:  4240 Erm…the world is my parish is the classic thing… I …. Look, ministry is difficult for me, it always has been, because I do believe that we are here to serve the world not our own local community… and so I will go wherever…wherever there’s a need I want to go help – and folk want me rather to be the minister here. So that’s been an issue.   
MM:  4309  Ja, I was talking with Brian about exactly that before we got going. What do you … what sort of evangelism… this is question ten … what sort of evangelism do you consider that outsiders find the most persuasive
ME012: 4320  Oh! That’s an interesting one. What sort of evangelism do outsiders…outsiders? What are outsiders? 
MM:  4327  What are outsiders? I’m leaving all the definitions to the people I ask. To see what they come up with. 
ME012: 4335  So probably by outsiders…. I’m assuming people who are not…unchurched people? Which would include both people who may have a religious perspective and those that are anti-religion. Or “faith”, maybe is  better  than “religion”… .. I think for me the most persuasive one are …is one that I try to work with is … is to help people discover that they are loved? To acknowledge that they are not far from God…that the Kingdom of God is near to them. Because most people come with deep religious guilt  - that sin means I’m useless – and [4430] sin doesn’t mean that for me. Sin rather means that we are just separated. It doesn’t mean that I am useless as a person. We are still loved. So for me the persuasive one is I think two things…one is one that is drawing me in through love rather than out of fear…and secondly, it is relational. So I think that the most persuasive one
MM:  4457  Yes, that’s quite a strong theme for you, isn’t it
ME012:  4500 Very much so, ja…I think people come to faith through other people. Not always. People may have a Damascus experience or whatever, but generally I think it is through the influence of another’s faithful lifestyle…and a word…so it’s both that has influenced them to the point that they are responsive, ja.  
MM:  4526  I really think that you’re onto something there…ja…and the obverse of that? What do outsiders find objectionable or…
ME012: 4535  Oh I think this whole thing of … that I used to preach … turn or burn… No I think the thing of making them feel inferior … you know, if you don’t come to Christ you … you are hopeless, you are condemned to hell. … you are less than we are…. So, you know, it’s a them and us type thing. It’s a very thing about you make a choice now and then you’re OK before and unless you make that choice you’re not OK. … and, ja, fear-driven and all those type of thing are things that just put people off.  And sometimes I think even the language that we use … we speak …we speak in a way that excludes people [4637] … ja, I could talk for a long time about that so maybe I won’t. 
MM:  4645  Well, that’s the penalty of speaking to preachers is that they will preach at one
ME012:  4652 Ja…I think a lot of our language … sometimes the clichéd church language … that people don’t understand what you are saying … and you know the Jesus way I think is to speak in the language of the person who is listening. … ja…. So … the woman caught in adultery is a really condemning voice from religion … and Jesus doesn’t condone the behaviour …but offers acceptance of  her, not of  
MM:  4735  Thank you. Ja, no…. why do you think John Wesley was so successful as an evangelist? Under that heading
ME012: 4750  I think he would probably do evangelism very differently to the way I would do it today … I think he was quite a…he was a firebrand. So he condemned things very quickly – you know he was quite outspoken or whatever 
MM:  4804  Because that seems to be counter-intuitive to what you’re saying…so why was he persuasive? 
ME012: 4813  Good question…. I’ll read your book to find out why. [laughter]  
MM:  4822  You’re supposed  to be telling me. How will I know why if you don’t tell me?
ME012: 4825  I think some of his …. I think a number of things…the one is that he spoke from a personal experience – so after his Aldersgate experience was when he became effective. Because it was no longer just a theoretical knowledge – he carried all of the theological understanding with him but he could now speak from a heart perspective, and I think people connect with that. 
MM:  4853  Ja…I think you can’t fake that. 
ME012: 4856  Ja, and I think that the other thing was his genius was in setting up the class meetings and the accountability processes so that people didn’t just respond to the emotion of the moment, but it was carried through in a learnt experience of what it meant, and spelling out, and holding each other accountable to grow more Christ-like.  So I think those two were …. I think the systems were genius that nobody was just left to their own devices – they helped each other. So I thinl…ja…it was where he was good….
MM:  4935  OK…well, I found that very helpful. Last question: Is there any budget allocation for people or concerns who are outsiders? 
ME012: 4948  Er…now our church here? Well yes we do … I mean it’s only recently that we’ve begun a tithe allocation. Up until two years ago we’ve been talking about it but the church didn’t tithe but gave occasionally… So we have what’s called a generosity budget rather than a tithing fund 
MM:  5010  OK…that’s nice phrasing
ME012:  5012 I’ve tried to move away from just ten percent at the moment – it’s not always ten percent, but sometimes it can be more. So we’ve tried to call it generosity 
MM:   5020 That would be very Wesleyan
ME012: 5021  And we – again, I’ve tried to do that principle of the 25% thing, and that’s how we do it, and so occasionally what we do is that we use some of that that goes to the old poor fund, which we now call a “caring fund” because there are people in our own community, and so we use that for our own members as well.  
MM:  5045  OK…and lastly, last consideration…imagine that someone gave you R10,000… so that’s the amount, it’s not too small and it’s not to big, but it’s R10,000…and they said “We’d like you to spend this on evangelism” How would you spend it? How would you like it to be spent? 
ME012: 5105  ….It’s again an open-ended question…we’d like to spend it on evangelism? So…  
MM:   5116 The only tag is that it’s got to be spent on evangelism – evangelism as you understand it. 
ME012: 5120  ….. ja …. So I wouldn’t want…I’d use…probably not want to use it for programs or material or for anything like that, or for training…I would probably like to say well isn’t there somebody that we could be …or some people that we could be using that … who are doing works of evangelism somewhere…so for instance we support regularly here a person who does evangelism on the trains, and he goes to police station and he starts a prayer meeting. He calls himself Pastor Amos and he’s from Malawi. He comes to me every month and we basically his rental and for a room that he meets in and has prayer meetings, and his train ticket. So that it’s almost like stipendiary… so that he can continue with his work … so I would want to put it in some area where evangelism is happening. Because we have enough of our own resources to spend on training and buying equipment and materials – so I would want that to go straightaway to somebody who is doing mission.   
MM:  5230  So you’d pass it right on
ME012: 5231  Ja …I think that would make sense… but that’s me
MM:    OK…well, thank you very much Andre. I look forward to reflecting on that. And thank you for your time
7047
17438 
6756
4153
7223
4216
4873
7212  
9514
7736
7570
Word Average with Mashna Sasman:7216
  Word average Without Mashna Sasman: 5873